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I could reply point-by-point, but it's pointless (pun intended). Here is one thing I learned over the years. There are people of type A who believe there actu

by romaniv 12y ago

I could reply point-by-point, but it's pointless (pun intended). Here is one thing I learned over the years. There are people of type A who believe there actually are meaningful things in life. This belief requires to acknowledge that there are also meaningless things. And yes, sometimes identifying those things can get a bit depressing. There are other people, type B, who believe there are no meaningful things in life. This same statement can be given a positive spin by negation, but the essence remains the same. This is the type that lectures everyone on how subjective and relative everything is, like it's some kind of revolutionary idea we have not heard before. But that's not it. What I really learned is that having a conversation relating to meaning or value of anything is entirely pointless if you're speaking with people of type B. Eventually, they will fall back on stating the same core belief (the one I just described above) in a myriad different ways. And here is a question worth asking. If people of type A can have a productive conversation about things that type B considers non-existent, which belief system makes more sense?

0x5f3759df-i 12y ago
There is nothing inherently meaningful about anything, you can choose what is meaningful to you, but that meaning isn't automatically universal to everyone else.
- Zancarius 12y ago
  > This is the type that lectures everyone on how subjective and relative everything is, like it's some kind of revolutionary idea we have not heard before. I thought what romaniv wrote was interesting, but now it's just illustrative. ;)
  - 0x5f3759df-i 12y ago
    He also states: >There are other people, type B, who believe there are no meaningful things in life. Which isn't what I am saying. There are many meaningful things in my life. I'm not saying that meaning doesn't exist, I am saying that meaning is personal and that there is no universal meaning.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
haberman 12y ago
I always find it very weird when people have debates about whether life is "meaningful" or not. "Meaningfulness" is just a feeling inside a human psyche. If it feels meaningful, then it is meaningful to you. Other people may have different feelings about what is meaningful. How can a person of type A claim any kind of universal or objective meaningfulness of anything? How would you build a meaningfulness detector or write a meaningfulness algorithm to discern what is meaningful and what is not? What evidence is there to suggest that meaningfulness is a concept that exists outside of our own minds and experience?
- kuzmin 12y ago
  I spotted the type B person!
  - pharrington 12y ago
    It seems so weird to me that so many people confuse someone saying a phenomena is a mental process for saying that phenomena doesn't exist.
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      I find they often miss the key fact - human brains are made of the same template; we do have universal values and thought processes. Things that are universal to humans are not arbitrary to us (even though they might be in the grander scale).
      - haberman 12y ago
        > we do have universal values and thought processes If there was universal agreement about what is meaningful, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I think you would be pretty hard-pressed to find very much that is absolutely universal to the human experience. But even if there are things which are highly prevalent in the human experience, that is not evidence that these feelings are "truth." We have direct evidence that our brains are pre-programmed with tons of cognitive biases and nonsensical beliefs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
Hasu 12y ago
>If people of type A can have a productive conversation about things that type B considers non-existent, which belief system makes more sense? Type B. Replace "meaningful things in life" with God, fairies, the aether, Pokemon, or any other fiction, and those in type A can still have "productive conversation" about things that do not exist at all.
- skrebbel 12y ago
  I love how well these comments here demonstrate the GP's point. I mean, woa life must be dull for you B people! I love having productive conversation about God, fairies, the aether and Pokemon. Warmly recommended!
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  Preference orderings may be abstract, but they surely exist.
  - Hasu 12y ago
    Preference orderings have very little to do with "meaning in life" or "meaningful things in life". "Meaning in life" is a vague, ill-defined phrase whose referent is not a real thing.
LesZedCB 12y ago
Both. Both make perfect sense to the people within each system.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
normloman 12y ago
That one thing you learned over the years is a false dichotomy. There are no As and Bs. Most people value something. They just value different things than you.
MarkPNeyer 12y ago
Neal Stephenson goes into this a great deal in Anathem. it's worth a read.
ThomPete 12y ago
If you by type B means something akin to Nihilist or Relativist then I think you are missing the point many of them are trying to make. Otherwise there is people of type C. It's not that everything is the same But that you can't claim something to be objectively better just because you think it's subjectively better. That does not mean type B do not believe there are somethings that are better, just that they are subjective. Or put another way. You cannot not have values. Needing to pee means you will prioritize something over others. And so type B people have plenty of meaning in life they can even discuss why they think a is better than b but they don't take whatever claim to be conclusive.
lmm 12y ago
Most conversations fall down to people stating what they believe. Your post reads like it's deliberately obfuscated, to insinuate an insult in a way that won't get you modded down; if you're sincere then please say what you mean more clearly.
betenoire 12y ago
There are people of type A who believe that there are some things so meaningless that it is impossible to find any meaning in them. And yes, they also think there are meaningful things out there too. There are other people, type B, who believe meaning is something personal and different for everyone. Of course, this means that the meaning will not seek you out, but that you have to seek it out yourself. And that can be hard for some. But that's not it. What I really learned is that /u/romaniv doesn't even want to talk to you if you disagree with him, because he's heard it all before.

by romaniv 12y ago

0x5f3759df-i 12y ago

There is nothing inherently meaningful about anything, you can choose what is meaningful to you, but that meaning isn't automatically universal to everyone else.

Zancarius 12y ago
> This is the type that lectures everyone on how subjective and relative everything is, like it's some kind of revolutionary idea we have not heard before. I thought what romaniv wrote was interesting, but now it's just illustrative. ;)
- 0x5f3759df-i 12y ago
  He also states: >There are other people, type B, who believe there are no meaningful things in life. Which isn't what I am saying. There are many meaningful things in my life. I'm not saying that meaning doesn't exist, I am saying that meaning is personal and that there is no universal meaning.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

haberman 12y ago

I always find it very weird when people have debates about whether life is "meaningful" or not. "Meaningfulness" is just a feeling inside a human psyche. If it feels meaningful, then it is meaningful to you. Other people may have different feelings about what is meaningful. How can a person of type A claim any kind of universal or objective meaningfulness of anything? How would you build a meaningfulness detector or write a meaningfulness algorithm to discern what is meaningful and what is not? What evidence is there to suggest that meaningfulness is a concept that exists outside of our own minds and experience?

kuzmin 12y ago
I spotted the type B person!
- pharrington 12y ago
  It seems so weird to me that so many people confuse someone saying a phenomena is a mental process for saying that phenomena doesn't exist.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    I find they often miss the key fact - human brains are made of the same template; we do have universal values and thought processes. Things that are universal to humans are not arbitrary to us (even though they might be in the grander scale).
    - haberman 12y ago
      > we do have universal values and thought processes If there was universal agreement about what is meaningful, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I think you would be pretty hard-pressed to find very much that is absolutely universal to the human experience. But even if there are things which are highly prevalent in the human experience, that is not evidence that these feelings are "truth." We have direct evidence that our brains are pre-programmed with tons of cognitive biases and nonsensical beliefs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

Hasu 12y ago

>If people of type A can have a productive conversation about things that type B considers non-existent, which belief system makes more sense? Type B. Replace "meaningful things in life" with God, fairies, the aether, Pokemon, or any other fiction, and those in type A can still have "productive conversation" about things that do not exist at all.

skrebbel 12y ago
I love how well these comments here demonstrate the GP's point. I mean, woa life must be dull for you B people! I love having productive conversation about God, fairies, the aether and Pokemon. Warmly recommended!
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
Preference orderings may be abstract, but they surely exist.
- Hasu 12y ago
  Preference orderings have very little to do with "meaning in life" or "meaningful things in life". "Meaning in life" is a vague, ill-defined phrase whose referent is not a real thing.

LesZedCB 12y ago

Both. Both make perfect sense to the people within each system.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

normloman 12y ago

That one thing you learned over the years is a false dichotomy. There are no As and Bs. Most people value something. They just value different things than you.

MarkPNeyer 12y ago

Neal Stephenson goes into this a great deal in Anathem. it's worth a read.

ThomPete 12y ago

If you by type B means something akin to Nihilist or Relativist then I think you are missing the point many of them are trying to make. Otherwise there is people of type C. It's not that everything is the same But that you can't claim something to be objectively better just because you think it's subjectively better. That does not mean type B do not believe there are somethings that are better, just that they are subjective. Or put another way. You cannot not have values. Needing to pee means you will prioritize something over others. And so type B people have plenty of meaning in life they can even discuss why they think a is better than b but they don't take whatever claim to be conclusive.

lmm 12y ago

Most conversations fall down to people stating what they believe. Your post reads like it's deliberately obfuscated, to insinuate an insult in a way that won't get you modded down; if you're sincere then please say what you mean more clearly.

betenoire 12y ago

There are people of type A who believe that there are some things so meaningless that it is impossible to find any meaning in them. And yes, they also think there are meaningful things out there too. There are other people, type B, who believe meaning is something personal and different for everyone. Of course, this means that the meaning will not seek you out, but that you have to seek it out yourself. And that can be hard for some. But that's not it. What I really learned is that /u/romaniv doesn't even want to talk to you if you disagree with him, because he's heard it all before.