8 ms·

I have to note that A4 (what goes in a standard printer) is just a shitty format for documents. There is no way to get a proper layout done, you basically need

I have to note that A4 (what goes in a standard printer) is just a shitty format for documents. There is no way to get a proper layout done, you basically need two columns to use a reasonable amount of space with regards to font size and text body layout, which leads to other problems. There is a very good reason you don't see any A4 books. A5 works OK for book layouts but still is too wide actually... A5 booklet printed: http://mr.gy/blogopy/max/3589981109.html http://mr.gy/blogopy/max/3589981109.html

redcodenl 12y ago
The point is: An A5 booklet on A4 is the same as A4 booklet on A3, etc.
- mrottenkolber 12y ago
  No its not. In fact its completely unrelated because when making book you should care for aspects like font size and text body layout which follow an ergonomic perspective. E.g. the same booklet layout on a3 wouldn't work at all because the font would be huge. Keep the font size small and you have really long lines...
  - willvarfar 12y ago
    I regularly print out A4 documents two-to-a-page side-by-side on my office printer. It saves paper, its easier to carry around, and it works just fine. No distortion. If your docs are US Letter, how well do they print out scaled down two-to-a-page side-by-side?
    - theOnliest 12y ago
      I do this a lot for printing out (research) articles, and the answer is that the text gets shrunk much more, and the margins increased to account for the difference. (This actually turns out to be useful in practice, since there's much more whitespace to take notes in.)
      - SeanLuke 12y ago
        You are misunderstanding him. He's not saying that you can't shrink A4 down to A3. He's saying that aesthetically you can't do this without (of course) changing the font size. But if you want to retain readability, you may need to keep the font size larger, thus requiring a complete reformatting of the text. That is, you're talking about math and he's talking about the realities in dealing with humans as readers.
  - glitch 12y ago
    Makes it easy for the "large print" edition for people with eyesight issues.
skore 12y ago
> There is no way to get a proper layout done This is puzzling - how do you explain the abundance of people who seem to have no problem with this whatsoever? Finally: I have seen lots and lots of A4 books, but they're simply not as common. It probably does help to live in Europe in that regard.
- mrottenkolber 12y ago
  Are you a bookmaker? The are the ones with the problems. ;) > I have seen lots and lots of A4 books And they all have suboptimal layouts.
  - skore 12y ago
    > And they all have suboptimal layouts. (my emphasis) My question would be - would you be willing to ascribe that to taste?
    - mrottenkolber 12y ago
      No. Try to layout a document on A4 while maintaining at least basic standard rules (e.g. lines of 8-12 words, a pretty text body layout, e.g. a "nice ratio" like 3/4 or 1/2, with standard margins, that is 1 on top, left and right and 2 on bottom). Since your font size will either be 11 or 12 pt on A4 because otherwise you use less than half of the paper or your font is really huge, you're not left with many options.
      - MrDosu 12y ago
        All of this is voodoo that you learned working with your preferred aspect ratio and size. None of these rules have any kind of objective basis.
        SeanLuke 12y ago
        I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss hundreds, perhaps thousands of years of aesthetic tweaking by experts as voodoo simply to defend a page size and proportion whose primary advantage is not aesthetic but function.
tenfingers 12y ago
Books come in absolutely random factors. The book "advanced engineering mathematics (8th edition on my desk)" is just as wide as A4, but less tall for some reason. I regularly print documents in A4, and full-width text is absolutely ok if you consider the required margins for binding.
talideon 12y ago
Y'know, you can just make the margins wider.
glitch 12y ago
Although I don't agree with the width statement, I just wanted to note that I personally find the B sizes nicer than the A sizes for non-fiction books. I find A5 pages a tad small for textbooks, but B5 seems just right. (So, effectively "B4 folded", which is usually printed on A3 to begin with, then folded into signatures, bound, and then ultimately cropped.) And since it's all the same proportion, it makes it easy.
samatman 12y ago
This is what the B series is for. It maintains the geometric properties of the A series but has a 1.420 contrast ratio. B5 is what you want for a typical book. It's also the geometric mean between A4 and A5, which is pretty cool!
fuzz_junket 12y ago
As someone who printed every high-school and university essay on A4 paper, I can say it's a fine size for documents. You're right that it's a rubbish size for books, but that's a different question.

redcodenl 12y ago

The point is: An A5 booklet on A4 is the same as A4 booklet on A3, etc.

mrottenkolber 12y ago
No its not. In fact its completely unrelated because when making book you should care for aspects like font size and text body layout which follow an ergonomic perspective. E.g. the same booklet layout on a3 wouldn't work at all because the font would be huge. Keep the font size small and you have really long lines...
- willvarfar 12y ago
  I regularly print out A4 documents two-to-a-page side-by-side on my office printer. It saves paper, its easier to carry around, and it works just fine. No distortion. If your docs are US Letter, how well do they print out scaled down two-to-a-page side-by-side?
  - theOnliest 12y ago
    I do this a lot for printing out (research) articles, and the answer is that the text gets shrunk much more, and the margins increased to account for the difference. (This actually turns out to be useful in practice, since there's much more whitespace to take notes in.)
    - SeanLuke 12y ago
      You are misunderstanding him. He's not saying that you can't shrink A4 down to A3. He's saying that aesthetically you can't do this without (of course) changing the font size. But if you want to retain readability, you may need to keep the font size larger, thus requiring a complete reformatting of the text. That is, you're talking about math and he's talking about the realities in dealing with humans as readers.
- glitch 12y ago
  Makes it easy for the "large print" edition for people with eyesight issues.

skore 12y ago

> There is no way to get a proper layout done This is puzzling - how do you explain the abundance of people who seem to have no problem with this whatsoever? Finally: I have seen lots and lots of A4 books, but they're simply not as common. It probably does help to live in Europe in that regard.

mrottenkolber 12y ago
Are you a bookmaker? The are the ones with the problems. ;) > I have seen lots and lots of A4 books And they all have suboptimal layouts.
- skore 12y ago
  > And they all have suboptimal layouts. (my emphasis) My question would be - would you be willing to ascribe that to taste?
  - mrottenkolber 12y ago
    No. Try to layout a document on A4 while maintaining at least basic standard rules (e.g. lines of 8-12 words, a pretty text body layout, e.g. a "nice ratio" like 3/4 or 1/2, with standard margins, that is 1 on top, left and right and 2 on bottom). Since your font size will either be 11 or 12 pt on A4 because otherwise you use less than half of the paper or your font is really huge, you're not left with many options.
    - MrDosu 12y ago
      All of this is voodoo that you learned working with your preferred aspect ratio and size. None of these rules have any kind of objective basis.
      - SeanLuke 12y ago
        I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss hundreds, perhaps thousands of years of aesthetic tweaking by experts as voodoo simply to defend a page size and proportion whose primary advantage is not aesthetic but function.

tenfingers 12y ago

Books come in absolutely random factors. The book "advanced engineering mathematics (8th edition on my desk)" is just as wide as A4, but less tall for some reason. I regularly print documents in A4, and full-width text is absolutely ok if you consider the required margins for binding.

talideon 12y ago

Y'know, you can just make the margins wider.

glitch 12y ago

Although I don't agree with the width statement, I just wanted to note that I personally find the B sizes nicer than the A sizes for non-fiction books. I find A5 pages a tad small for textbooks, but B5 seems just right. (So, effectively "B4 folded", which is usually printed on A3 to begin with, then folded into signatures, bound, and then ultimately cropped.) And since it's all the same proportion, it makes it easy.

samatman 12y ago

This is what the B series is for. It maintains the geometric properties of the A series but has a 1.420 contrast ratio. B5 is what you want for a typical book. It's also the geometric mean between A4 and A5, which is pretty cool!

fuzz_junket 12y ago

As someone who printed every high-school and university essay on A4 paper, I can say it's a fine size for documents. You're right that it's a rubbish size for books, but that's a different question.