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So you are one of those who says "Please close the door right after I get in". "We came during the time when America needed new talent."...well, the kind of ta

by prpon 17y ago

So you are one of those who says "Please close the door right after I get in". "We came during the time when America needed new talent."...well, the kind of talent that got in is not cutting it right now. May be we need a new crop of immigrants to stir up the economy? or the kind of wage drops that you hate will cause the profitability of these companies to go up and stir the economy.

vaksel 17y ago
We have 10% unemployment. Are you telling not one of those people cuts it for the job? When times are good, fine let everyone in. But when people end up unemployed for 2-3 years at a time, letting more people to expand the # of unemployed is just plain stupid. How will these immigrants stir up the economy? They don't come here with a job like H1B Visa guys, they come here penniless, with crappy English and no connections. Yeah they'll stir up the economy alright, by adding more unemployed, desperate people willing to work for nothing, just to pay the bills. I'm not for closing the door right after I get in, I'm for closing the door, because the times are tough and the country is fucked. Once the economy starts expanding again, sure open the door. But until then, when jobs are limited, the last thing we need is bring in more competition.
- InclinedPlane 17y ago
  Again this notion that immigrants "take jobs". And therefore immigrants increase the unemployment rate. This is simply counter-factual. People doing work lead to more people doing work, regardless of the work they do. People doing the same work for less pay arguably reduces the unemployment rate (due to multiple factors).
  - vaksel 17y ago
    So how exactly do immigrants create jobs? They increase unemployment rate because they come here to get jobs. Why can't the same people be some of the 10% of unemployed in this country? Sure it reduces the unemployment rate, but only if it's the same 10% going for it, if you add an extra half a million unemployed workers, them taking jobs does nothing for unemployment
    - pg 17y ago
      "So how exactly do immigrants create jobs?" The same way newly born Americans do: they consume goods and services.
      - thaumaturgy 17y ago
        They also boot-strap economies. Individuals with good product ideas, a field of consumers, and cheap labor can produce large numbers of goods that can be exported as well as consumed in local economies. This is much harder to do when dealing with labor that has an upward force applied to its wages, either by being artificially limited (as in current immigration policies) or by requiring a rare skill. Economies aren't zero-sum games. I really don't get why more people don't understand this.
      - InclinedPlane 17y ago
        That's the "broken windows" theory, which is half right. They actually create jobs by doing work. Imagine the simplest case of 2 people (Alice and Bob) and a single $100 bill. If Alice is kind hearted and gives Bob $100 every time she is able but Bob pays $100 for Alice's work (say, making a chair, painting a house, etc.) this isn't a functional economy. All of Alice's labor goes to benefit Bob, Alice would be better off abstaining from the "economy" and using her labor to benefit herself. Now imagine that Alice gives Bob $100 for work that Bob's done, then Bob gives Alice $100 for work that Alice has done, etc, etc. Alice then ends up with the fruits of Bob's labor, and Bob ends up with the fruits of Alice's labor, if they have unique skills then this true economy could be mutually beneficial. The trading of money is just a proxy for the bartering of goods and services, money is just paper. Doing work contributes positively to the economy, it's the fundamental building block of the economy (not spending money).

by prpon 17y ago

vaksel 17y ago

We have 10% unemployment. Are you telling not one of those people cuts it for the job? When times are good, fine let everyone in. But when people end up unemployed for 2-3 years at a time, letting more people to expand the # of unemployed is just plain stupid. How will these immigrants stir up the economy? They don't come here with a job like H1B Visa guys, they come here penniless, with crappy English and no connections. Yeah they'll stir up the economy alright, by adding more unemployed, desperate people willing to work for nothing, just to pay the bills. I'm not for closing the door right after I get in, I'm for closing the door, because the times are tough and the country is fucked. Once the economy starts expanding again, sure open the door. But until then, when jobs are limited, the last thing we need is bring in more competition.

InclinedPlane 17y ago
Again this notion that immigrants "take jobs". And therefore immigrants increase the unemployment rate. This is simply counter-factual. People doing work lead to more people doing work, regardless of the work they do. People doing the same work for less pay arguably reduces the unemployment rate (due to multiple factors).
- vaksel 17y ago
  So how exactly do immigrants create jobs? They increase unemployment rate because they come here to get jobs. Why can't the same people be some of the 10% of unemployed in this country? Sure it reduces the unemployment rate, but only if it's the same 10% going for it, if you add an extra half a million unemployed workers, them taking jobs does nothing for unemployment
  - pg 17y ago
    "So how exactly do immigrants create jobs?" The same way newly born Americans do: they consume goods and services.
    - thaumaturgy 17y ago
      They also boot-strap economies. Individuals with good product ideas, a field of consumers, and cheap labor can produce large numbers of goods that can be exported as well as consumed in local economies. This is much harder to do when dealing with labor that has an upward force applied to its wages, either by being artificially limited (as in current immigration policies) or by requiring a rare skill. Economies aren't zero-sum games. I really don't get why more people don't understand this.
    - InclinedPlane 17y ago
      That's the "broken windows" theory, which is half right. They actually create jobs by doing work. Imagine the simplest case of 2 people (Alice and Bob) and a single $100 bill. If Alice is kind hearted and gives Bob $100 every time she is able but Bob pays $100 for Alice's work (say, making a chair, painting a house, etc.) this isn't a functional economy. All of Alice's labor goes to benefit Bob, Alice would be better off abstaining from the "economy" and using her labor to benefit herself. Now imagine that Alice gives Bob $100 for work that Bob's done, then Bob gives Alice $100 for work that Alice has done, etc, etc. Alice then ends up with the fruits of Bob's labor, and Bob ends up with the fruits of Alice's labor, if they have unique skills then this true economy could be mutually beneficial. The trading of money is just a proxy for the bartering of goods and services, money is just paper. Doing work contributes positively to the economy, it's the fundamental building block of the economy (not spending money).