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Immigration is fine, as long as it's an even playing field. The problem is that immigration right now is treated as a source of cheap labor by the companies. Th

by vaksel 17y ago

Immigration is fine, as long as it's an even playing field. The problem is that immigration right now is treated as a source of cheap labor by the companies. The policy needs to be that if you come to this country, you are officially an American, and should be paid a proper wage. Instead of being forced to work 60 hours a week for $30K. This way companies won't get to drive down salaries by just importing a bunch of Indians to work for slave wages. Call it Patriot Wage Freedom Act. Which would make it a form of discrimination to pay less than fair wage for employees based on their immigrant status. You make it illegal for companies to pay $10/hour for a C++ developer with 10 years experience in California and you can import as many programmers as you wish.

seldo 17y ago
Forgive my language, but even playing field my ass. This kind of stuff really makes me angry. Do you think when millions of starving Irish refugees turned up in the 1840s it didn't depress wages for existing American workers at the time? Or the Poles, or the Germans, or the dozens of other nationalities? Immigration is an economic force which moves labour from areas of high supply to areas of high demand. The result, considered globally, is greater prosperity for everybody. The American economy is and always has been fuelled by cheap labour in the form of unskilled immigration -- forget $30k, the people who really get the economy moving are doing shit work for $8/hour. Lower wages means goods are cheaper, which means you can buy stuff that's cheaper, and when we export it we make more money. Lower wages are GREAT for the economy -- even, in the long run, for those in the industries affected, because their savings are bigger (cheaper stuff) and worth more (lower inflation), and their standard of living is higher (more stuff). And it's as true in high tech as it is in blue-collar industries. Saying you don't think there should be programmers working for $30k is exactly like those idiot auto workers who formed unions which demanded that they all be paid $60k/year to do the same assembly work people in Asia are doing for $30k. As a result, they're now either out of work or YOU are paying their ridiculous $60k wage out of your tax money after the bailouts. Not exactly the American Way. Even if you shipped over every single able and willing programmer in India and China to California tomorrow wages wouldn't drop to $10/hour. There are just not that many programmers in the world. But because some Americans are terrified that rampant immigration will mean they earn $95k instead of $100k/year, every time they get they opportunity they vote to make it harder for hard-working, skilled immigrants to enter and stay in this country. In so doing, they save that $5k but never earn the $50k they would have earned as the stock market rose on the strength of all that immigration-fuelled growth. But because you can't see money you never earn, few people complain. Do you know how many H-1B visas (the most common skilled tech worker visa) are granted every year? 65,000. That's 0.02% of the population. You could let in 10 times as many people every year and nobody would even notice. America's anti-immigration policies are stupid and self-defeating on a purely economic analysis, before you even get into the issue of a nation of white immigrants suddenly deciding that immigration is bad because the new guys are all brown.
- vaksel 17y ago
  We don't have a high demand, we have 10% unemployment, we don't need more people to take away jobs. This country is a country for Americans first, once we take care of our own, then we can start inviting more people to fill the demand. Yes they do shit work for $8 an hour...but does that mean that you need to turn high paying professions into "shit work" just because the companies want to save a buck? Programming should not be an $8/hour job, no matter what kind of language you are using. Hell have you even read some of the code written by these guys? Calling it garbage would be insulting to garbage. Oh please, lower wages for skilled labor doesn't mean squat for a company's bottom line. When you are making billions, paying a few less million in wages won't change anything. Wages have ALREADY dropped to $10 an hour. Go hit up craigslist, PLENTY of companies looking for software developers with 5 years experience, and offering $10 an hour. And the screwed up thing, is that they'll get it. Some programmer, who's been out of work for a year or two, because the market is crappy, will do the job because he has to put food on the table. That is if he is lucky, because he'll have to compete with 100 other people for the position. This is America, we need to take care of our own first, before we decide to help the rest. When the times are good noone cares about immigrants, but when you see people being laid off left and right to be replaced by incompetent immigrants...then it's time to put the foot down. If you think increasing the # of people won't change anything you are smoking crack. Why are they stupid? Are we blocking all immigrants? No, we are letting in the 65K like you mentioned. That just means that we are getting the cream of the crop. Why do you want to lower the quality? You only lower the restrictions when you are in need of more people. That is not the case now. Hey I'm an immigrant myself, first generation too, and as someone who went through the process, I want STRICTER control on immigration. We came during the time when America needed new talent. That's not the case now. We are over capacity. Sorry, the country is full...come back when we recover.
  - prpon 17y ago
    So you are one of those who says "Please close the door right after I get in". "We came during the time when America needed new talent."...well, the kind of talent that got in is not cutting it right now. May be we need a new crop of immigrants to stir up the economy? or the kind of wage drops that you hate will cause the profitability of these companies to go up and stir the economy.
philh 17y ago
Noone's being forced to work any hours for any amount. They choose to do it, and if companies choose to hire them it's because they provide better value for money than the other potential employees. Possibly it makes economic sense to require them to be paid the same. But making the argument in terms of coercion is disingenuous.
- vaksel 17y ago
  Of course they provide better value, they are willing to do anything to come over here. I'm sure if you told 5 year old kids you'd be willing to hire them for $2/hour some of them would sign up, but we have child work laws for the same exact reason. Yes it makes economic sense to the company, but why should the American government help them at the expense of our own citizens? We have 10% unemployment, plenty of people willing to work, why should we subsidize your greed by giving you access to more slave labor?
  - smcq 17y ago
    As the grandson of a 'slave' immigrant that was brought over to build the railroads I take great offense to your complete lack of empathy. If they're willing to work for $8/hour here, that means things are worse for them where they are. Who are you to cast people into poverty, death, and dismay so that your economy can maintain a slightly higher salary.
    - vaksel 17y ago
      Who are you to cast your fellow americans into poverty, death and dismay just because you have a hard-on for helping people. Earth is not a magical place with rainbows and unicorns, you want to come to this country? Make us want you. Get a PhD or a Masters and you are good to go. My parents won the green card...TWICE...in the same year. So the odds mustn't be that hard.
      - smcq 17y ago
        My grandfather was literally starving to death before he immigrated. Are you seriously claiming the (theoretical) minor reductions in earning caps (for unskilled labor) we're discussing are comparable?
yardie 17y ago
I think immigration should be treated the same as the free market for goods. If there is a market, a demand, and a willing supply then there should be little or nothing to stop the flow of labour. The EU for example in the 90s was worried about the entrance of Polish and Greek labour onto their market. The experiment turned out to be successful. Where, in the UK, there was much higher competition for plumbers, an example. Before, if you had a problem you would pay through the nose to get a plumber*. Now, the work is much more sanely priced. Now that the UK economy has tanked the same Polish migrants are heading home or to other areas of the EU. Obviously, some have decided to stay in the UK. But a lot have gone to Poland to start a business in their home country because now their is demand and money available. If the immigration rules were restrictive than most would be reluctant to leave because you're either in or out. Immigration should be a simple process; a bit of paperwork and a background check. Each state could make small additions like a health plan and unemployment insurance are bought by the worker or supplied by the company.

by vaksel 17y ago

seldo 17y ago

Forgive my language, but even playing field my ass. This kind of stuff really makes me angry. Do you think when millions of starving Irish refugees turned up in the 1840s it didn't depress wages for existing American workers at the time? Or the Poles, or the Germans, or the dozens of other nationalities? Immigration is an economic force which moves labour from areas of high supply to areas of high demand. The result, considered globally, is greater prosperity for everybody. The American economy is and always has been fuelled by cheap labour in the form of unskilled immigration -- forget $30k, the people who really get the economy moving are doing shit work for $8/hour. Lower wages means goods are cheaper, which means you can buy stuff that's cheaper, and when we export it we make more money. Lower wages are GREAT for the economy -- even, in the long run, for those in the industries affected, because their savings are bigger (cheaper stuff) and worth more (lower inflation), and their standard of living is higher (more stuff). And it's as true in high tech as it is in blue-collar industries. Saying you don't think there should be programmers working for $30k is exactly like those idiot auto workers who formed unions which demanded that they all be paid $60k/year to do the same assembly work people in Asia are doing for $30k. As a result, they're now either out of work or YOU are paying their ridiculous $60k wage out of your tax money after the bailouts. Not exactly the American Way. Even if you shipped over every single able and willing programmer in India and China to California tomorrow wages wouldn't drop to $10/hour. There are just not that many programmers in the world. But because some Americans are terrified that rampant immigration will mean they earn $95k instead of $100k/year, every time they get they opportunity they vote to make it harder for hard-working, skilled immigrants to enter and stay in this country. In so doing, they save that $5k but never earn the $50k they would have earned as the stock market rose on the strength of all that immigration-fuelled growth. But because you can't see money you never earn, few people complain. Do you know how many H-1B visas (the most common skilled tech worker visa) are granted every year? 65,000. That's 0.02% of the population. You could let in 10 times as many people every year and nobody would even notice. America's anti-immigration policies are stupid and self-defeating on a purely economic analysis, before you even get into the issue of a nation of white immigrants suddenly deciding that immigration is bad because the new guys are all brown.

vaksel 17y ago
We don't have a high demand, we have 10% unemployment, we don't need more people to take away jobs. This country is a country for Americans first, once we take care of our own, then we can start inviting more people to fill the demand. Yes they do shit work for $8 an hour...but does that mean that you need to turn high paying professions into "shit work" just because the companies want to save a buck? Programming should not be an $8/hour job, no matter what kind of language you are using. Hell have you even read some of the code written by these guys? Calling it garbage would be insulting to garbage. Oh please, lower wages for skilled labor doesn't mean squat for a company's bottom line. When you are making billions, paying a few less million in wages won't change anything. Wages have ALREADY dropped to $10 an hour. Go hit up craigslist, PLENTY of companies looking for software developers with 5 years experience, and offering $10 an hour. And the screwed up thing, is that they'll get it. Some programmer, who's been out of work for a year or two, because the market is crappy, will do the job because he has to put food on the table. That is if he is lucky, because he'll have to compete with 100 other people for the position. This is America, we need to take care of our own first, before we decide to help the rest. When the times are good noone cares about immigrants, but when you see people being laid off left and right to be replaced by incompetent immigrants...then it's time to put the foot down. If you think increasing the # of people won't change anything you are smoking crack. Why are they stupid? Are we blocking all immigrants? No, we are letting in the 65K like you mentioned. That just means that we are getting the cream of the crop. Why do you want to lower the quality? You only lower the restrictions when you are in need of more people. That is not the case now. Hey I'm an immigrant myself, first generation too, and as someone who went through the process, I want STRICTER control on immigration. We came during the time when America needed new talent. That's not the case now. We are over capacity. Sorry, the country is full...come back when we recover.
- prpon 17y ago
  So you are one of those who says "Please close the door right after I get in". "We came during the time when America needed new talent."...well, the kind of talent that got in is not cutting it right now. May be we need a new crop of immigrants to stir up the economy? or the kind of wage drops that you hate will cause the profitability of these companies to go up and stir the economy.

philh 17y ago

Noone's being forced to work any hours for any amount. They choose to do it, and if companies choose to hire them it's because they provide better value for money than the other potential employees. Possibly it makes economic sense to require them to be paid the same. But making the argument in terms of coercion is disingenuous.

vaksel 17y ago
Of course they provide better value, they are willing to do anything to come over here. I'm sure if you told 5 year old kids you'd be willing to hire them for $2/hour some of them would sign up, but we have child work laws for the same exact reason. Yes it makes economic sense to the company, but why should the American government help them at the expense of our own citizens? We have 10% unemployment, plenty of people willing to work, why should we subsidize your greed by giving you access to more slave labor?
- smcq 17y ago
  As the grandson of a 'slave' immigrant that was brought over to build the railroads I take great offense to your complete lack of empathy. If they're willing to work for $8/hour here, that means things are worse for them where they are. Who are you to cast people into poverty, death, and dismay so that your economy can maintain a slightly higher salary.
  - vaksel 17y ago
    Who are you to cast your fellow americans into poverty, death and dismay just because you have a hard-on for helping people. Earth is not a magical place with rainbows and unicorns, you want to come to this country? Make us want you. Get a PhD or a Masters and you are good to go. My parents won the green card...TWICE...in the same year. So the odds mustn't be that hard.
    - smcq 17y ago
      My grandfather was literally starving to death before he immigrated. Are you seriously claiming the (theoretical) minor reductions in earning caps (for unskilled labor) we're discussing are comparable?

yardie 17y ago

I think immigration should be treated the same as the free market for goods. If there is a market, a demand, and a willing supply then there should be little or nothing to stop the flow of labour. The EU for example in the 90s was worried about the entrance of Polish and Greek labour onto their market. The experiment turned out to be successful. Where, in the UK, there was much higher competition for plumbers, an example. Before, if you had a problem you would pay through the nose to get a plumber*. Now, the work is much more sanely priced. Now that the UK economy has tanked the same Polish migrants are heading home or to other areas of the EU. Obviously, some have decided to stay in the UK. But a lot have gone to Poland to start a business in their home country because now their is demand and money available. If the immigration rules were restrictive than most would be reluctant to leave because you're either in or out. Immigration should be a simple process; a bit of paperwork and a background check. Each state could make small additions like a health plan and unemployment insurance are bought by the worker or supplied by the company.