6 ms·

You lucky pal. You were actually able to legaly get the tools you need. I on the other hand have no legal way to pay for some of the TV shows I'm watching. Even

You lucky pal. You were actually able to legaly get the tools you need. I on the other hand have no legal way to pay for some of the TV shows I'm watching. Even if I wanted. And I want. I have a netflix subscription. But even netflix doens't have all the shows / movies. So how will this play out? The companies will figure out, sooner or later, that if they provide a reasonable service then people will pay for it. Until then, TPB / bittorrent will remain the only source for a rather large group of people.

k-mcgrady 12y ago
>> "You were actually able to legaly get the tools you need. I on the other hand have no legal way to pay for some of the TV shows I'm watching." I'm probably going to get down voted for this but when your excuse for piracy is you can't watch some TV shows your excuse is weak. Not being able to see those shows is going to have very little impact on your life. Certainly not enough of an impact to justify theft or copying without permission. TV shows are not a 'tool you need'. I'm fortunately in a country where most stuff is available. There is still a lot that is not though and occasionally I may turn to piracy (until it is available at which stage I buy it). I don't try to justify this though as it is a poor justification for piracy.
- ojii 12y ago
  But if I have two options: 1) Not watch a Movie/TV Show or 2) Pirate it (there's no option to buy it, which is true for most of the world besides the US), isn't piracy a "victimless" crime as in the producers of the content don't lose sales, because there was no way to do a sale in the first place?
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    >> "isn't piracy a "victimless" crime as in the producers of the content don't lose sales" I don't know. Maybe the creator didn't want people in a certain country to view the material. Maybe it hurts their feelings that it's being pirated. Maybe they have a release planned 6 months from now in a certain country and their sales will be down for that. There's no way to know for certain you won't be causing harm.
    - icebraining 12y ago
      As a copyright holder of my HN posts, it hurts my feelings seeing you criticize pirates. Please refrain from doing so as a condition of downloading my posts.
    - logfromblammo 12y ago
      > There's no way to know for certain you won't be causing harm. Harm must be proven to receive civil redress. Potential, unrealized harm is not actionable. If your neighbor digs a bottomless pit in his backyard, and posts trespass warnings, you cannot sue to have him fill it because your kids might fall in. They would, after all, need to trespass in order to do that. But you could tell your insurance adjuster, they could apply a risk premium to a policy, based on the presence of the hole, and you could sue your neighbor for that. The argument against piracy is essentially a neighbor saying that 40 of their kids accidentally fell into the hole, except they also somehow lost all the birth certificates and forgot the kids' names. There's just no way that anyone can prove that sort of harm. But if the content industry ever tried to take out an insurance policy for sales lost to piracy, that would be a reasoned, independent, and measurable assessment of their harm, and they couldn't make up those BS numbers about how many dozens of their non-existent children fell into the pit, lost forever, even to the public records and the memory of their parents.
  - Thlom 12y ago
    Third option: Wait until it's released in your region. As long as TV-shows are broadcasted on television you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region. Some will, somw won't, depending on distribution/broadcast agreements.
    - narrowrail 12y ago
      >you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region. I believe TPB and kickass proves this statement false. I don't know what 'region' I'm in, and I don't care.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Without meaning to single you out: message board nerds like us have a bad habit of writing as if this observation was a keen bit of insight about piracy, but it's in fact a classic economic problem: the problem of free-riders. If you want to see it in action in a setting where we don't get derailed so easily by its implications, consider vaccination.
- DannyBee 12y ago
  The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest. People don't need to speed in cars, or run red lights, or roll through stop signs. etc (They generally do so because the cost to them is low 99.9% of the time)
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    >> "The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest." True, I'm not sure why it annoys me so much. I would be much happier if people just said, "Sure, I pirate some stuff I don't need. There is no excuse for it but I do it anyway." The end result is the same.
    - DannyBee 12y ago
      My guess, and i only minored in psychology, is that I'm guessing you just don't like the rationalization, because it's obviously silly and false. The same way "I want to get home faster" or "i'm careful" is also a silly and false rationalization for the speeding/rolling through stop signs/etc.
      - k-mcgrady 12y ago
        Probably right as I also feel the same way about the latter rationalisations you mentioned.
- Karunamon 12y ago
  I've yet to hear a good argument against piracy that boils down to anything but "what if everyone did it" and "the creator won't like it". I'm bracing for the downvotes here, but I really don't see copying for personal use as a negative. To me, it's illegal in the same way that violating traffic laws to keep up with the flow of traffic is illegal (technically, but (sufficiently small values of) nobody actually cares or is actually harmed by it). Would love to see some arguments to the contrary that aren't straight out of the media cartel fallacies playbook :)
  - radisb 12y ago
    How about this argument: It is against the law.
    - Karunamon 12y ago
      So is not coming to a full stop at red lights, driving 1 mile per hour over the speed limit, bringing lobsters under a certain length into the country, exposing government corruption, and many more questionable things. Your point? Slavish adherence to the law makes you obedient, not noble.
    - narrowrail 12y ago
      In the U.S., it is a civil offense, not criminal (as long as it's non-commercial). In other countries (i.e. Canada), it isn't even a civil offense.
    - tomjen3 12y ago
      You mean it is written on a piece of paper and enforced by armed men? That is not very much justification.
      - radisb 12y ago
        No. I mean it is written on a piece of paper and enforced by sometimes armed men to whom you implicitly grant authority to do, whenever you use the law to protect your own rights. That is the trade off in democracy: We have to obey laws we dont like or agree with, in order to be able to enjoy the benefits of those we do agree with
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    He/she tries to excuse their piracy (it's not available in my country/can't access tools). This is an excuse lots of people use and seem to think it makes piracy ok. My point it that it doesn't. If you're pirating something just admit that there is no excuse - you can live without that episode of Game Of Thrones.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  I don't need to have excuse to pirate. The service is just better and hassle free. No accounts, no logins, higher download speeds, worldwide availability. The fact that is free is just bonus.
- lultimouomo 12y ago
  The weak excuse suffices for many people because the fault is perceived as proportionally weak. You don't pay for watching things you are not allowed to pay for anyway. Where's the harm? We can argue if that perception is right, but I think this is the reasoning that justifies piracy in the eyes of many pirates.
Amezarak 12y ago
> I on the other hand have no legal way to pay for some of the TV shows I'm watching. Even if I wanted. And I want. Devil's advocate: so? Why should anyone have to provide you with the entertainment that you want? Why shouldn't they be able to exercise their right to sell their product to whoever they want - and leave out whoever they don't want? What possible justification could there be for that level of entitlement? What moral justification could there be for saying: sell me your product, or I will take it? How far does this go with IP? If a web designer refuses to sell me their design, am I free to take it? At least with tools like Photoshop, you can claim you "need" it to do work and make a living. Nobody needs a TV show. I pirate TV. Some of the shows I could (and do; I also have Netflix) get legally and some I couldn't, but the fact of the matter is nobody "owes" me their TV show and I could just not watch it. And I would just stop watching, if the cost of all the TV shows I wanted to watch ever exceeded $10/month and piracy was too difficult/risky. I'm not kidding myself, the reason I pirate is because it's both cheap and convenient. Honestly I'd probably be better off not watching TV anyway. :)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- nothrabannosir 12y ago
  That argument works only in defense, not in offense. Look: A: Pirating is wrong! B: But I have no alternatives A: So what? You are right, of course: so what? But if "so what?" is an option, then the entire discussion becomes: A: Pirating is wrong! B: So what? B doesn't care about this discussion in the first place. A wants to make a point. That means you can't use "so what?". This is what lultimouomo meant when he said "the excuse is weak, but the fault itself is also considered weak." [para] Again, not saying I disagree. Of course; so what? But, in that case: people pirate. So what? You're the one making a point. If your point is just "it's illegal": everyone knows that already. So what?
- mikeash 12y ago
  If a web designer refuses to sell you their design, would it be wrong to take it anyway, if all you're going to do is look at it in private? I would have a tough time condemning that. You're right that nobody owes us their TV show. But on the other hand, I don't see why we owe them assistance to enforce their wishes.
fit2rule 12y ago
Don't you know, you're only allowed to engage in culture in your region that has been approved by those in power to carve up the regions into cultural zones. If you're trying to watch TV shows that haven't been released in your zone illegally, you're engaging in cultural warfare. Wait until the shows have been approved for your market by those who own the rights to the cultural artifacts being considered for distribution .. /s

k-mcgrady 12y ago

>> "You were actually able to legaly get the tools you need. I on the other hand have no legal way to pay for some of the TV shows I'm watching." I'm probably going to get down voted for this but when your excuse for piracy is you can't watch some TV shows your excuse is weak. Not being able to see those shows is going to have very little impact on your life. Certainly not enough of an impact to justify theft or copying without permission. TV shows are not a 'tool you need'. I'm fortunately in a country where most stuff is available. There is still a lot that is not though and occasionally I may turn to piracy (until it is available at which stage I buy it). I don't try to justify this though as it is a poor justification for piracy.

ojii 12y ago
But if I have two options: 1) Not watch a Movie/TV Show or 2) Pirate it (there's no option to buy it, which is true for most of the world besides the US), isn't piracy a "victimless" crime as in the producers of the content don't lose sales, because there was no way to do a sale in the first place?
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  >> "isn't piracy a "victimless" crime as in the producers of the content don't lose sales" I don't know. Maybe the creator didn't want people in a certain country to view the material. Maybe it hurts their feelings that it's being pirated. Maybe they have a release planned 6 months from now in a certain country and their sales will be down for that. There's no way to know for certain you won't be causing harm.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    As a copyright holder of my HN posts, it hurts my feelings seeing you criticize pirates. Please refrain from doing so as a condition of downloading my posts.
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    > There's no way to know for certain you won't be causing harm. Harm must be proven to receive civil redress. Potential, unrealized harm is not actionable. If your neighbor digs a bottomless pit in his backyard, and posts trespass warnings, you cannot sue to have him fill it because your kids might fall in. They would, after all, need to trespass in order to do that. But you could tell your insurance adjuster, they could apply a risk premium to a policy, based on the presence of the hole, and you could sue your neighbor for that. The argument against piracy is essentially a neighbor saying that 40 of their kids accidentally fell into the hole, except they also somehow lost all the birth certificates and forgot the kids' names. There's just no way that anyone can prove that sort of harm. But if the content industry ever tried to take out an insurance policy for sales lost to piracy, that would be a reasoned, independent, and measurable assessment of their harm, and they couldn't make up those BS numbers about how many dozens of their non-existent children fell into the pit, lost forever, even to the public records and the memory of their parents.
- Thlom 12y ago
  Third option: Wait until it's released in your region. As long as TV-shows are broadcasted on television you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region. Some will, somw won't, depending on distribution/broadcast agreements.
  - narrowrail 12y ago
    >you can't expect all shows to be isntantly available in your region. I believe TPB and kickass proves this statement false. I don't know what 'region' I'm in, and I don't care.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Without meaning to single you out: message board nerds like us have a bad habit of writing as if this observation was a keen bit of insight about piracy, but it's in fact a classic economic problem: the problem of free-riders. If you want to see it in action in a setting where we don't get derailed so easily by its implications, consider vaccination.
DannyBee 12y ago
The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest. People don't need to speed in cars, or run red lights, or roll through stop signs. etc (They generally do so because the cost to them is low 99.9% of the time)
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  >> "The excuse is often weak, but this does nothing to change human nature in the slightest." True, I'm not sure why it annoys me so much. I would be much happier if people just said, "Sure, I pirate some stuff I don't need. There is no excuse for it but I do it anyway." The end result is the same.
  - DannyBee 12y ago
    My guess, and i only minored in psychology, is that I'm guessing you just don't like the rationalization, because it's obviously silly and false. The same way "I want to get home faster" or "i'm careful" is also a silly and false rationalization for the speeding/rolling through stop signs/etc.
    - k-mcgrady 12y ago
      Probably right as I also feel the same way about the latter rationalisations you mentioned.
Karunamon 12y ago
I've yet to hear a good argument against piracy that boils down to anything but "what if everyone did it" and "the creator won't like it". I'm bracing for the downvotes here, but I really don't see copying for personal use as a negative. To me, it's illegal in the same way that violating traffic laws to keep up with the flow of traffic is illegal (technically, but (sufficiently small values of) nobody actually cares or is actually harmed by it). Would love to see some arguments to the contrary that aren't straight out of the media cartel fallacies playbook :)
- radisb 12y ago
  How about this argument: It is against the law.
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    So is not coming to a full stop at red lights, driving 1 mile per hour over the speed limit, bringing lobsters under a certain length into the country, exposing government corruption, and many more questionable things. Your point? Slavish adherence to the law makes you obedient, not noble.
  - narrowrail 12y ago
    In the U.S., it is a civil offense, not criminal (as long as it's non-commercial). In other countries (i.e. Canada), it isn't even a civil offense.
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    You mean it is written on a piece of paper and enforced by armed men? That is not very much justification.
    - radisb 12y ago
      No. I mean it is written on a piece of paper and enforced by sometimes armed men to whom you implicitly grant authority to do, whenever you use the law to protect your own rights. That is the trade off in democracy: We have to obey laws we dont like or agree with, in order to be able to enjoy the benefits of those we do agree with
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  He/she tries to excuse their piracy (it's not available in my country/can't access tools). This is an excuse lots of people use and seem to think it makes piracy ok. My point it that it doesn't. If you're pirating something just admit that there is no excuse - you can live without that episode of Game Of Thrones.
venomsnake 12y ago
I don't need to have excuse to pirate. The service is just better and hassle free. No accounts, no logins, higher download speeds, worldwide availability. The fact that is free is just bonus.
lultimouomo 12y ago
The weak excuse suffices for many people because the fault is perceived as proportionally weak. You don't pay for watching things you are not allowed to pay for anyway. Where's the harm? We can argue if that perception is right, but I think this is the reasoning that justifies piracy in the eyes of many pirates.

Amezarak 12y ago

> I on the other hand have no legal way to pay for some of the TV shows I'm watching. Even if I wanted. And I want. Devil's advocate: so? Why should anyone have to provide you with the entertainment that you want? Why shouldn't they be able to exercise their right to sell their product to whoever they want - and leave out whoever they don't want? What possible justification could there be for that level of entitlement? What moral justification could there be for saying: sell me your product, or I will take it? How far does this go with IP? If a web designer refuses to sell me their design, am I free to take it? At least with tools like Photoshop, you can claim you "need" it to do work and make a living. Nobody needs a TV show. I pirate TV. Some of the shows I could (and do; I also have Netflix) get legally and some I couldn't, but the fact of the matter is nobody "owes" me their TV show and I could just not watch it. And I would just stop watching, if the cost of all the TV shows I wanted to watch ever exceeded $10/month and piracy was too difficult/risky. I'm not kidding myself, the reason I pirate is because it's both cheap and convenient. Honestly I'd probably be better off not watching TV anyway. :)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
nothrabannosir 12y ago
That argument works only in defense, not in offense. Look: A: Pirating is wrong! B: But I have no alternatives A: So what? You are right, of course: so what? But if "so what?" is an option, then the entire discussion becomes: A: Pirating is wrong! B: So what? B doesn't care about this discussion in the first place. A wants to make a point. That means you can't use "so what?". This is what lultimouomo meant when he said "the excuse is weak, but the fault itself is also considered weak." [para] Again, not saying I disagree. Of course; so what? But, in that case: people pirate. So what? You're the one making a point. If your point is just "it's illegal": everyone knows that already. So what?
mikeash 12y ago
If a web designer refuses to sell you their design, would it be wrong to take it anyway, if all you're going to do is look at it in private? I would have a tough time condemning that. You're right that nobody owes us their TV show. But on the other hand, I don't see why we owe them assistance to enforce their wishes.

fit2rule 12y ago

Don't you know, you're only allowed to engage in culture in your region that has been approved by those in power to carve up the regions into cultural zones. If you're trying to watch TV shows that haven't been released in your zone illegally, you're engaging in cultural warfare. Wait until the shows have been approved for your market by those who own the rights to the cultural artifacts being considered for distribution .. /s