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This article has quite some flaws. It totally ignores that it was the GPLv3 that let Apple move to LLVM - with Apple not being the only company that was kind o

This article has quite some flaws. It totally ignores that it was the GPLv3 that let Apple move to LLVM - with Apple not being the only company that was kind of okay with GPLv2 but totally avoids GPLv3. It often looses touch with reality. It absolutely ignores that Apple was a contributor of GCC and some of the LLVM developers were GCC developers before. It goes on and on how LLVM is in a terrible state that will get even worse because of a missing copyleft, when in reality LLVM is thriving because of the many companies that are contributing.

sangnoir 12y ago
If Apple is "kind of okay with GPLv2", why doesn't it allow GPLv2 apps in the App Store? In my opinion, Apple was never okay with copyleft (whichever version). There is nothing wrong with a company objecting to copyleft licensing.
- anon1385 12y ago
  Because the App Store prevents people redistributing apps they have bought and that is incompatible with the GPL. They actually did allow them until the FSF sued them[1]. Apple limit redistribution because they want to make it harder to pirate apps. That isn't the choice I'd make for my apps but I can see why Apple feels they need to try and prevent piracy. Some people have suggested allowing free apps to be redistributed and thus allowing free GPL apps, but the result of that would just be somebody putting up GNU Go for $0.99 and then getting sued by the FSF again. They probably don't think it's worth the hassle of special casing free GPL apps, when users who want them can easily just get them outside of the store. [1] http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-...
  - detaro 12y ago
    > when users who want them can easily just get them outside of the store How? Don't you need to get a developer license and all that jazz?
    - protomyth 12y ago
      If you want to sign the app, then yes. For the time being, it is an option to be able to run non-signed apps. You can currently ok selected apps by ctrl-clicking the app and using "Open" on the popup menu then answering "Ok" to the warning.
  - sangnoir 12y ago
    > but the result of that would just be somebody putting up GNU Go for $0.99 and then getting sued by the FSF again. Why would the FSF sue in this instance? As far as I can tell it's not about the $0 or $0.99 price - if the $0.99 app provides the a way for users to get the source, it will be GPL-compliant the FSF will be fine with that.
    - sanxiyn 12y ago
      GPL requires unlimited binary redistribution. Since Apple does not want to allow that, the suggestion was to allow binary redistribution just for free apps. If this suggestion is implemented, $0.99 GNU Go is not a free app, so Apple would disallow binary redistribution, and FSF will sue Apple.
      - arca_vorago 12y ago
        This entire thread is news to me. Just the other day I was searching the apple store for "GNU" and "GPL" and came up with almost nothing of note. So what you are saying is if I wrote, say, a game for the app store, and wanted to release it under GPLv3, Apple wouldn't approve it? Even if I provide the binaries/src on a seperate website linked from within the app but not dependent on apple in anyway whatsoever? Would it matter on the monetization scheme? eg free, one time payment, in app purchases, all with access to src to be compatible with GPL? If it's true that Apple doesn't allow GPL'd s/w in the store, I think my hatred for Apple just grew by 10,000 sizes. edit: Seems to be true, Apple store is completely at odds with GPL'd software, and potentially quite a few other licenses. https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store...
        cwyers 12y ago
        > So what you are saying is if I wrote, say, a game for the app store, and wanted to release it under GPLv3, Apple wouldn't approve it? Even if I provide the binaries/src on a seperate website linked from within the app but not dependent on apple in anyway whatsoever? Well, to clarify. You, as a software author, are quite free to release your software under both the GPL and the Apple App Store. This is fine. In other words, you're distributing your software under multiple licenses. What you cannot do is distribute someone else's GPL'd code as part of your Apple App Store app, because the GPL does not give you the right to distribute the code under the App Store's conditions.
wildfire 12y ago
> It absolutely ignores that Apple was a contributor of GCC Actually, Apple were compelled to contribute to GCC. That is one of the points of the article. That an Objective-C compiler exists at all is because of GCC. The fact that we can see and examine the source is because of the GNU GPL.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >That an Objective-C compiler exists at all is because of GCC. The fact that we can see and examine the source is because of the GNU GPL. Yeah, no. They contribute the same to LLVM -- and even more than they did with GCC--, while still nobody "compells" them. Plus Apple released lots of other Open Source stuff, even when not compelled by GPL. Nobody forced with respect to Darwin for example.
  - chimeracoder 12y ago
    > Yeah, no. They contribute the same to LLVM -- and even more than they did with GCC--, while still nobody "compells" them. This does not negate OP's statement, "The fact that we can see and examine the source [of the Objective-C compiler] is because of the GNU GPL." We have very well-documented and undisputed evidence that NeXT wanted to make the Objective-C compiler proprietary, and that they only backed down after the FSF lawyers determined that that would be a violation of the license. As far as Apple's open source contributions, according to Saurik, they often fall short even when legally compelled, let alone their voluntary contributions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083877

sangnoir 12y ago

If Apple is "kind of okay with GPLv2", why doesn't it allow GPLv2 apps in the App Store? In my opinion, Apple was never okay with copyleft (whichever version). There is nothing wrong with a company objecting to copyleft licensing.

anon1385 12y ago
Because the App Store prevents people redistributing apps they have bought and that is incompatible with the GPL. They actually did allow them until the FSF sued them[1]. Apple limit redistribution because they want to make it harder to pirate apps. That isn't the choice I'd make for my apps but I can see why Apple feels they need to try and prevent piracy. Some people have suggested allowing free apps to be redistributed and thus allowing free GPL apps, but the result of that would just be somebody putting up GNU Go for $0.99 and then getting sued by the FSF again. They probably don't think it's worth the hassle of special casing free GPL apps, when users who want them can easily just get them outside of the store. [1] http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-...
- detaro 12y ago
  > when users who want them can easily just get them outside of the store How? Don't you need to get a developer license and all that jazz?
  - protomyth 12y ago
    If you want to sign the app, then yes. For the time being, it is an option to be able to run non-signed apps. You can currently ok selected apps by ctrl-clicking the app and using "Open" on the popup menu then answering "Ok" to the warning.
- sangnoir 12y ago
  > but the result of that would just be somebody putting up GNU Go for $0.99 and then getting sued by the FSF again. Why would the FSF sue in this instance? As far as I can tell it's not about the $0 or $0.99 price - if the $0.99 app provides the a way for users to get the source, it will be GPL-compliant the FSF will be fine with that.
  - sanxiyn 12y ago
    GPL requires unlimited binary redistribution. Since Apple does not want to allow that, the suggestion was to allow binary redistribution just for free apps. If this suggestion is implemented, $0.99 GNU Go is not a free app, so Apple would disallow binary redistribution, and FSF will sue Apple.
    - arca_vorago 12y ago
      This entire thread is news to me. Just the other day I was searching the apple store for "GNU" and "GPL" and came up with almost nothing of note. So what you are saying is if I wrote, say, a game for the app store, and wanted to release it under GPLv3, Apple wouldn't approve it? Even if I provide the binaries/src on a seperate website linked from within the app but not dependent on apple in anyway whatsoever? Would it matter on the monetization scheme? eg free, one time payment, in app purchases, all with access to src to be compatible with GPL? If it's true that Apple doesn't allow GPL'd s/w in the store, I think my hatred for Apple just grew by 10,000 sizes. edit: Seems to be true, Apple store is completely at odds with GPL'd software, and potentially quite a few other licenses. https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store...
      - cwyers 12y ago
        > So what you are saying is if I wrote, say, a game for the app store, and wanted to release it under GPLv3, Apple wouldn't approve it? Even if I provide the binaries/src on a seperate website linked from within the app but not dependent on apple in anyway whatsoever? Well, to clarify. You, as a software author, are quite free to release your software under both the GPL and the Apple App Store. This is fine. In other words, you're distributing your software under multiple licenses. What you cannot do is distribute someone else's GPL'd code as part of your Apple App Store app, because the GPL does not give you the right to distribute the code under the App Store's conditions.

wildfire 12y ago

> It absolutely ignores that Apple was a contributor of GCC Actually, Apple were compelled to contribute to GCC. That is one of the points of the article. That an Objective-C compiler exists at all is because of GCC. The fact that we can see and examine the source is because of the GNU GPL.

coldtea 12y ago
>That an Objective-C compiler exists at all is because of GCC. The fact that we can see and examine the source is because of the GNU GPL. Yeah, no. They contribute the same to LLVM -- and even more than they did with GCC--, while still nobody "compells" them. Plus Apple released lots of other Open Source stuff, even when not compelled by GPL. Nobody forced with respect to Darwin for example.
- chimeracoder 12y ago
  > Yeah, no. They contribute the same to LLVM -- and even more than they did with GCC--, while still nobody "compells" them. This does not negate OP's statement, "The fact that we can see and examine the source [of the Objective-C compiler] is because of the GNU GPL." We have very well-documented and undisputed evidence that NeXT wanted to make the Objective-C compiler proprietary, and that they only backed down after the FSF lawyers determined that that would be a violation of the license. As far as Apple's open source contributions, according to Saurik, they often fall short even when legally compelled, let alone their voluntary contributions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083877