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> several vaccines have been taken off the market This is what I mean by atrocious record. Not with vaccines specifically, but looking across all medications.

by logn 12y ago

> several vaccines have been taken off the market This is what I mean by atrocious record. Not with vaccines specifically, but looking across all medications. Anyhow if you can point me to double-blind placebo controlled studies on all the major vaccines, please do.

smt88 12y ago
Vaccines are not like other medications. With many medications, there is a benefit only to one person. With vaccines, there are benefits to an entire society (especially those who are not healthy enough to take vaccines themselves). We know that the highly recommended, widely used vaccines are safe. But even if they weren't, there should still be a higher tolerance of risk because the danger that they prevent is certain and extreme.
Fomite 12y ago
Two rotavirus vaccines were suspected of causing a rare but serious side effect (that they actually caused it at higher rates is somewhat less clear). They were immediately pulled off the market, and replaced with a vaccine that doesn't cause said side effect - which has been vigilantly monitored with post-market studies ever since. A smattering of double-blind RCTs for you: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00122681 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00122681 (HPV) https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266850 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266850 (Rotavirus) https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01171963 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01171963 (also Rotavirus) You'll find them relatively easily for novel vaccines. In another post I mention unethical studies. Asking for new RCTs for existing vaccines used to prevent childhood disease is absurdly unethical, and would never pass muster at any self-respecting institutional review board. The best you'll get is comparisons between new formulations and existing vaccines, ala https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00861744 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00861744 because there's no reason to put a swath of children at risk of preventable childhood diseases when we have working vaccines with very little evidence of serious side effects.
- logn 12y ago
  I think doctors will need to get over these ethical issues before immunization could ever be compulsory. It's just as unethical to force a treatment that's not been properly tested on a population, as it is to not expose them to that treatment.

by logn 12y ago

smt88 12y ago

Vaccines are not like other medications. With many medications, there is a benefit only to one person. With vaccines, there are benefits to an entire society (especially those who are not healthy enough to take vaccines themselves). We know that the highly recommended, widely used vaccines are safe. But even if they weren't, there should still be a higher tolerance of risk because the danger that they prevent is certain and extreme.

Fomite 12y ago

Two rotavirus vaccines were suspected of causing a rare but serious side effect (that they actually caused it at higher rates is somewhat less clear). They were immediately pulled off the market, and replaced with a vaccine that doesn't cause said side effect - which has been vigilantly monitored with post-market studies ever since. A smattering of double-blind RCTs for you: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00122681 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00122681 (HPV) https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266850 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266850 (Rotavirus) https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01171963 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01171963 (also Rotavirus) You'll find them relatively easily for novel vaccines. In another post I mention unethical studies. Asking for new RCTs for existing vaccines used to prevent childhood disease is absurdly unethical, and would never pass muster at any self-respecting institutional review board. The best you'll get is comparisons between new formulations and existing vaccines, ala https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00861744 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00861744 because there's no reason to put a swath of children at risk of preventable childhood diseases when we have working vaccines with very little evidence of serious side effects.

logn 12y ago
I think doctors will need to get over these ethical issues before immunization could ever be compulsory. It's just as unethical to force a treatment that's not been properly tested on a population, as it is to not expose them to that treatment.