8 ms·

It used to be the case that a service would politely ask you whether or not they could collect data about you, and would provide the same service in both cases.

It used to be the case that a service would politely ask you whether or not they could collect data about you, and would provide the same service in both cases. This option (to minimise data collection/retention) ought to be enshrined in law. If you pay (or not) for a service, you should be able to get the service without the expectation of your personal and private data being harvested.

vidarh 12y ago
In this case the issue is that it is not possible for them to provide the service without potentially collecting private data: The voice recognition is done on remote servers, and they have no means of preventing you from saying something private when it is recording.
- DanBC 12y ago
  The TV could store a "wake up" word locally. The TV doesn't send any audio anywhere until you speak the wakeup word, at which point in beeps and a light flashes and then all audio is sent away to the cloud for processing.
  - chkuendig 12y ago
    This is exactly how Amazon Echo does it: Amazon Echo uses on-device keyword spotting to detect the wake word. When Amazon Echo detects the wake word, Amazon Echo streams audio to the Cloud, including a fraction of a second of audio before the wake word. http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201602230 http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=2...
    - mkal_tsr 12y ago
      > including a fraction of a second of audio before the wake word. Interesting that they are able to transmit audio-data that occurred prior to the wake word being said (in essence to transmit the wake word). Looks like Amazon is keen to redefine "collected" just like other groups are...
      - ars 12y ago
        Why is that interesting? It's quite simple since the device is always listening locally, and just storing a second of audio in a buffer. It's not "collected" since it only has 1 second of audio until it wakes up.
        mkal_tsr 12y ago
        Because every time Amazon echo comes up, people always rush it "don't worry guys, it's not actually recording anything until it has to send to the cloud" and by Amazon's own admission, that's patently false.
        ars 12y ago
        Um, no, that's patently true. Unless you are talking about the half second before the trigger word? But even then - it only sends when triggered.
        mkal_tsr 12y ago
        I am indeed talking about the 1/2 second before. Even if it's 0.00001 seconds before the trigger word (I feel dirty saying that phrase), it's the technicality that I'm discussing. Once we allow those technicalities to slide, the truth is easier to bend and/or ignore. Reinforcing that PR/marketing is not an acceptable excuse to lie (even if it's a minor technical lie) is one of the few ways to prevent this sort of subtle-switcheroo.
        ars 12y ago
        > I am indeed talking about the 1/2 second before. Then you are alone in this. Even amongst technological people, never mind the general public. This amount of time is perfectly reasonable. > Once we allow those technicalities to slide, the truth is easier to bend and/or ignore. No it doesn't. Slippery slope might be a valid argument in some places, but not here. You are overreacting. > to prevent this sort of subtle-switcheroo. There is no subtle switcheroo. It's very very simple: It only sends audio when commanded to. That is the essence of the difference, and it's all that matters. And don't tell me "next they'll send 1 hour of audio when triggered" because they won't. You are being ridiculous if you think that's where it's headed. Taking outrageous positions like this just makes people ignore you. > the trigger word (I feel dirty saying that phrase) ? Why? Does it have some special meaning I am not aware of?
  - vidarh 12y ago
    True, but that still does not prevent the possibility of it capturing private conversations ongoing in the room.
- learnstats2 12y ago
  > The voice recognition is done on remote servers While possible, this is not theoretically necessary, and I find this highly doubtful in practice. What about the delay on each voice command as it pings the server? If it was generally the case that voice commands were sent remotely, I suggest usability would be 0.
  - maccard 12y ago
    Siri, and Cortana (iOS and WP8 voice recognition engines) both send the clip to a remote server to perform recognition. There are many services that provide real time processing of large amounts of data on server cluster/farms, and more are coming. It is very much possible to perform large computations in almost real time in these situations, and you'd be surprised at how little latency people notice, particularly when there's no indication of what the actual number is.
    - learnstats2 12y ago
      I wasn't aware that people generally found Siri usable.
      - thanksgiving 12y ago
        It is genuinely comic when I see what kind of questions my non-technical friends ask Siri. I can't imagine the thought process of how Siri could put together the information from the ramblings of a person much less answer the query...
      - maccard 12y ago
        That doesn't add anything to this discussion. Siri is more than usable for a lot of things - I can set alarms, timers, and make calls without reaching for my phone. I'm not saying that it's revolutionary, but it definitely works.
        learnstats2 12y ago
        From my point of view it did add significantly to the discussion. I'm surprised to learn that people do use Siri in genuine situations, so thanks for your reply in that regard; although I still feel gratified that another commenter has the same experience that I do.

vidarh 12y ago

In this case the issue is that it is not possible for them to provide the service without potentially collecting private data: The voice recognition is done on remote servers, and they have no means of preventing you from saying something private when it is recording.

DanBC 12y ago
The TV could store a "wake up" word locally. The TV doesn't send any audio anywhere until you speak the wakeup word, at which point in beeps and a light flashes and then all audio is sent away to the cloud for processing.
- chkuendig 12y ago
  This is exactly how Amazon Echo does it: Amazon Echo uses on-device keyword spotting to detect the wake word. When Amazon Echo detects the wake word, Amazon Echo streams audio to the Cloud, including a fraction of a second of audio before the wake word. http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201602230 http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=2...
  - mkal_tsr 12y ago
    > including a fraction of a second of audio before the wake word. Interesting that they are able to transmit audio-data that occurred prior to the wake word being said (in essence to transmit the wake word). Looks like Amazon is keen to redefine "collected" just like other groups are...
    - ars 12y ago
      Why is that interesting? It's quite simple since the device is always listening locally, and just storing a second of audio in a buffer. It's not "collected" since it only has 1 second of audio until it wakes up.
      - mkal_tsr 12y ago
        Because every time Amazon echo comes up, people always rush it "don't worry guys, it's not actually recording anything until it has to send to the cloud" and by Amazon's own admission, that's patently false.
        ars 12y ago
        Um, no, that's patently true. Unless you are talking about the half second before the trigger word? But even then - it only sends when triggered.
        mkal_tsr 12y ago
        I am indeed talking about the 1/2 second before. Even if it's 0.00001 seconds before the trigger word (I feel dirty saying that phrase), it's the technicality that I'm discussing. Once we allow those technicalities to slide, the truth is easier to bend and/or ignore. Reinforcing that PR/marketing is not an acceptable excuse to lie (even if it's a minor technical lie) is one of the few ways to prevent this sort of subtle-switcheroo.
        ars 12y ago
        > I am indeed talking about the 1/2 second before. Then you are alone in this. Even amongst technological people, never mind the general public. This amount of time is perfectly reasonable. > Once we allow those technicalities to slide, the truth is easier to bend and/or ignore. No it doesn't. Slippery slope might be a valid argument in some places, but not here. You are overreacting. > to prevent this sort of subtle-switcheroo. There is no subtle switcheroo. It's very very simple: It only sends audio when commanded to. That is the essence of the difference, and it's all that matters. And don't tell me "next they'll send 1 hour of audio when triggered" because they won't. You are being ridiculous if you think that's where it's headed. Taking outrageous positions like this just makes people ignore you. > the trigger word (I feel dirty saying that phrase) ? Why? Does it have some special meaning I am not aware of?
- vidarh 12y ago
  True, but that still does not prevent the possibility of it capturing private conversations ongoing in the room.
learnstats2 12y ago
> The voice recognition is done on remote servers While possible, this is not theoretically necessary, and I find this highly doubtful in practice. What about the delay on each voice command as it pings the server? If it was generally the case that voice commands were sent remotely, I suggest usability would be 0.
- maccard 12y ago
  Siri, and Cortana (iOS and WP8 voice recognition engines) both send the clip to a remote server to perform recognition. There are many services that provide real time processing of large amounts of data on server cluster/farms, and more are coming. It is very much possible to perform large computations in almost real time in these situations, and you'd be surprised at how little latency people notice, particularly when there's no indication of what the actual number is.
  - learnstats2 12y ago
    I wasn't aware that people generally found Siri usable.
    - thanksgiving 12y ago
      It is genuinely comic when I see what kind of questions my non-technical friends ask Siri. I can't imagine the thought process of how Siri could put together the information from the ramblings of a person much less answer the query...
    - maccard 12y ago
      That doesn't add anything to this discussion. Siri is more than usable for a lot of things - I can set alarms, timers, and make calls without reaching for my phone. I'm not saying that it's revolutionary, but it definitely works.
      - learnstats2 12y ago
        From my point of view it did add significantly to the discussion. I'm surprised to learn that people do use Siri in genuine situations, so thanks for your reply in that regard; although I still feel gratified that another commenter has the same experience that I do.