4 ms·

Can you imagine the testing rigor you would need for this sort of system, knowing that if you incorrectly engaged or steered the aircraft, you would be responsi

Can you imagine the testing rigor you would need for this sort of system, knowing that if you incorrectly engaged or steered the aircraft, you would be responsible for killing the pilot?

ccleve 12y ago
My thought exactly. Warning! Warning! NullPointerException! No, that's a contract I do not want.
- iLoch 12y ago
  I remember reading somewhere that these guys get all the time they want to program these systems, and the environment is very relaxed - I suppose for this very reason.
  - curiously 12y ago
    Write one line of code everyday, make sure it's bug free. I wouldn't be surprised if they used functional programming and avoiding object orientated programming.
    - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
      Why wouldn't they be using Ada? That's exactly what is was developed for.[1] Does anybody know if Ada is still in use for writing new applications? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_%28programming_language%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_%28programming_language%29
      - mparlane 12y ago
        http://search.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ShowJob/Id/25009/Software-Engineer-ava,-C-,-ADA-Clearance-needed-MST-Manassas/ http://search.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ShowJob/Id/25009/Softwa...
      - ObviousScience 12y ago
        You can take it a step further and use SPARK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%2...
        PhantomGremlin 12y ago
        Excellent. I wasn't aware of SPARK. It could have been useful for Toyota, rather than the ad-hoc mess they wound up with controlling their cars. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8905718 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8905718
      - kjs3 12y ago
        Boeing for one still uses a lot of Ada for critical flight systems. The 787 flight control software for one.
    - berkut 12y ago
      I left the defence industry eight years ago now, but back then (and based on that job posting below it looks like it's possibly still going on), it was a weird combination of ADA, C++ (sometimes C instead) and Java. In the late 90s, there was a big push in both the US and the UK defence industries to start using off-the-shelf software more, which meant moving to C++ from ADA. But you'd sometimes have weird systems of ADA being used for the "safety-critical" stuff, which interfaced via CORBA with C++ code controlling it (as a bigger system), and would then sometimes be exposed to the user again via CORBA in Java UI code! (never saw this (Java) on aircraft thankfully, only ships) A certain UK system also had code for controlling the HUD in ADA, but the main flight control system in C++, again via CORBA interfaces.. This wasn't always the case - some Solaris stuff on submarines was all C++ (with Sun's compiler), but it was frightening the complexity of it.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - gaius 12y ago
    See http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff for similar
thrownaway2424 12y ago
The meatware are already notorious for driving the aircraft into the ground. How much worse could the software people make it? Anyway they've had twenty years to work on this system according to the article.
Htsthbjig 12y ago
We have programmed such systems. We have programs to test all the possibilities in the software. And we have programs to test the testing programs. All hardware has redundancy. The software is executed in multiple processors at the same time, so if one fails, the others take control.
DrStalker 12y ago
I've heard (no source sorry) that in early testing in a simulator flying an F-16 over the international date line resulted in a 180 degree roll that was fast enough to render unconscious or kill the pilot, as the software got confused about teh orientation needed to keep the plane flying level. There was also a flight of F-22s (real, not simulated) that lost all computer and communication systems and had to follow another plane to get home because of a software bug when crossing the international date line: http://www.dailytech.com/Lockheeds+F22+Raptor+Gets+Zapped+by+International+Date+Line/article6225.htm http://www.dailytech.com/Lockheeds+F22+Raptor+Gets+Zapped+by...
- chiph 12y ago
  I heard a slightly different version of the F-16 going inverted - it was in the flight simulator during initial software checkout, and he flew into the southern hemisphere, when the plane flipped. Obviously a sign problem...
ufmace 12y ago
Imagine being the pilot doing the first real-world test. Point your jet fighter directly at the ground and let go of the controls, then trust that the software written by some guy you've never met will automatically avoid the crash for you.

Can you imagine the testing rigor you would need for this sort of system, knowing that if you incorrectly engaged or steered the aircraft, you would be responsible for killing the pilot?

ccleve 12y ago

My thought exactly. Warning! Warning! NullPointerException! No, that's a contract I do not want.

iLoch 12y ago
I remember reading somewhere that these guys get all the time they want to program these systems, and the environment is very relaxed - I suppose for this very reason.
- curiously 12y ago
  Write one line of code everyday, make sure it's bug free. I wouldn't be surprised if they used functional programming and avoiding object orientated programming.
  - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
    Why wouldn't they be using Ada? That's exactly what is was developed for.[1] Does anybody know if Ada is still in use for writing new applications? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_%28programming_language%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_%28programming_language%29
    - mparlane 12y ago
      http://search.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ShowJob/Id/25009/Software-Engineer-ava,-C-,-ADA-Clearance-needed-MST-Manassas/ http://search.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ShowJob/Id/25009/Softwa...
    - ObviousScience 12y ago
      You can take it a step further and use SPARK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%2...
      - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
        Excellent. I wasn't aware of SPARK. It could have been useful for Toyota, rather than the ad-hoc mess they wound up with controlling their cars. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8905718 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8905718
    - kjs3 12y ago
      Boeing for one still uses a lot of Ada for critical flight systems. The 787 flight control software for one.
  - berkut 12y ago
    I left the defence industry eight years ago now, but back then (and based on that job posting below it looks like it's possibly still going on), it was a weird combination of ADA, C++ (sometimes C instead) and Java. In the late 90s, there was a big push in both the US and the UK defence industries to start using off-the-shelf software more, which meant moving to C++ from ADA. But you'd sometimes have weird systems of ADA being used for the "safety-critical" stuff, which interfaced via CORBA with C++ code controlling it (as a bigger system), and would then sometimes be exposed to the user again via CORBA in Java UI code! (never saw this (Java) on aircraft thankfully, only ships) A certain UK system also had code for controlling the HUD in ADA, but the main flight control system in C++, again via CORBA interfaces.. This wasn't always the case - some Solaris stuff on submarines was all C++ (with Sun's compiler), but it was frightening the complexity of it.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- gaius 12y ago
  See http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff for similar

thrownaway2424 12y ago

The meatware are already notorious for driving the aircraft into the ground. How much worse could the software people make it? Anyway they've had twenty years to work on this system according to the article.

Htsthbjig 12y ago

We have programmed such systems. We have programs to test all the possibilities in the software. And we have programs to test the testing programs. All hardware has redundancy. The software is executed in multiple processors at the same time, so if one fails, the others take control.

DrStalker 12y ago

I've heard (no source sorry) that in early testing in a simulator flying an F-16 over the international date line resulted in a 180 degree roll that was fast enough to render unconscious or kill the pilot, as the software got confused about teh orientation needed to keep the plane flying level. There was also a flight of F-22s (real, not simulated) that lost all computer and communication systems and had to follow another plane to get home because of a software bug when crossing the international date line: http://www.dailytech.com/Lockheeds+F22+Raptor+Gets+Zapped+by+International+Date+Line/article6225.htm http://www.dailytech.com/Lockheeds+F22+Raptor+Gets+Zapped+by...

chiph 12y ago
I heard a slightly different version of the F-16 going inverted - it was in the flight simulator during initial software checkout, and he flew into the southern hemisphere, when the plane flipped. Obviously a sign problem...

ufmace 12y ago

Imagine being the pilot doing the first real-world test. Point your jet fighter directly at the ground and let go of the controls, then trust that the software written by some guy you've never met will automatically avoid the crash for you.