7 ms·

A xenon tube is a spark gap. If there's anything in this world noisier than a spark gap, I don't know what it is. I think the first radio transmitters were sp

by swamp40 12y ago

A xenon tube is a spark gap. If there's anything in this world noisier than a spark gap, I don't know what it is. I think the first radio transmitters were spark gaps. The energy flies thru the air, and is coupled onto the power line. The power supply doesn't cope well with the oscillations, and hiccups. I see the notes about U16 being photosensitive, but if it is a black epoxy like most IC's, I'm not buying that light gets into it. It's possible that blue tack shields the EMP a bit.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
A light flash is an EMP. Radio waves are light. They also, unless they are very short, pass easily through blue-tack. When they get that short they are basically becoming infra-red anyway. Then we have a wide range through the visible spectrum, up through UV, that blue-tack stops, until we start getting towards x-rays and blue-tack starts to become transparent again. This is caused by an electromagnetic pulse, but of one in or close to the visible spectrum, otherwise blue-tack would be useless. edit : The word light is commonly used as shorthand for variously the whole EM band, the near visible EM band and just the visible EM band. If you are talking about the speed of light, it includes radio and gamma. Discussing the colour of light on the other hand and you are referencing the visual system. As soon as you start talking about visible light however, you are widening the definition of light again to include IR and UV and more, otherwise you would not need to clarify with the word visible. edit 2 - darkmighty. I am not talking about the xenon bulb producing an RF EMP from the lamp flashing circuit, I am merely continuing the terminology used elsewhere in this thread, that a flash of visible light is also quite clearly a form of electromagnetic pulse. edit 3 - foobarbecue. Radio as it gets shorter becomes microwave, then IR, then red, through green, past blue, goes to UV, then xrays, then gamma.
- krenoten 12y ago
  To the downvoters of the above comment: if it's technically incorrect, say so. I don't know if it is or not, but it's certainly not an offensively worded comment. When you downvote rather than respond, you are actually spreading ignorance. A downvote is an effort to mute. A half-muted incorrect technical comment will encourage far more ignorance than a properly corrected, visible one. Don't encourage ignorance.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - _almosnow 12y ago
    True that, I always see downvotes without replies as nonsense. If they could argue something reasonable about the statement then they would post it, but since they don't do it then it's probably a downvote "just because I don't like the guy".
- darkmighty 12y ago
  Ok I think the biggest misconception here is conflating the EMP with the Xenon lamp flash. The EMP is generated by the lamp/flashing circuit, which is essentially acting like a small (but not atomic) dipole antenna excited by a pulse. Therefore it has a distinctive cut-off frequency, probably in the 10s of Mhz range but I'm not sure exactly (something like this: [1]). This pulse is picked up by wires that act as antenna, and you get RF interference. The Xenon flash has also a distinct spectrum, but it's essentially contained in the visible light range (in a log-frequency spectral density plot) [2], which is what you want with a lamp! This emission is absorbed by the semiconductor material by exciting bandgaps: displacing electrons causing voltage spikes. [1] http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/ew-radar-handbook/images/imgw27.gif http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/ew-radar-handboo... [2] http://www.ushio.co.jp/images/en/products/list/lamp/lamp_07_img_02.gif http://www.ushio.co.jp/images/en/products/list/lamp/lamp_07_...
- foobarbecue 12y ago
  "When they get that short they are basically becoming infra-red anyway." You mean UV. You got your spectrum backwards. You should probably just admit your error here -- it's light, not radio waves, causing the effect. Sure, they're part of a common spectrum, but your statement "radio waves are light" is obviously false. It's a bit like saying "red is blue". Edit: I misread the above, lotsofmangos was talking about wavelengths coming from the radio site of the spectrum rather than light, so he didn't get it backwards. The rest of this post stands.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I have been saying all along that it is electromagnetic waves in the visible or near visible spectrum causing the effect, otherwise the bluetack would not work. As to saying that radio is light, if calculating the propagation speed of a radio wave, you don't talk about its speed of radio, you talk about its speed of light. In many technical contexts, light is one of the default terms. Also, there would be no need for the term 'visible light' if light could not be used to describe electromagnetic radiation outside the visible spectrum. Infra-red and ultra-violet are commonly thought of as light and you can even create lensing optics for radio waves and for x-rays. http://www.rozendalassociates.com/Luneberg/index.htm http://www.rozendalassociates.com/Luneberg/index.htm https://www.imt.kit.edu/english/236.php https://www.imt.kit.edu/english/236.php
    - djmips 12y ago
      Agree, not sure why you were downvoted. EMP is photons. They were already considering the non visible spectrum when talking UV. There's a real prejudice and ignorance regarding visible light versus the entire electromagnetic spectrum.
jarvist 12y ago
A xenon tube is not a spark gap, in terms of the early radio receiver 'spark gaps' which were a primitive tuned circuit used to then feed an antenna (it wasn't the spark itself that was used for the transmission). Sparks produce a broadband radio signal, that decays strongly with increasing frequency. Very little is present in the Megahertz region, which is why lightening doesn't interfere with FM radio that much. Radio frequencies below the gigahertz or high megahertz region will not interfere with the Pi as the wavelength of these is too long to effectively couple into the short circuit board traces. Xenon flash tubes are not that noisy in terms of unwanted RF. Apart from anything else, you wouldn't be allowed to sell such radiating circuits in consumer equipment. A xenon flash puts out an enormous amount of blackbody light (high in IR and NIR) in a very short time frame (as short as 100 ns). Plastics are not very IR blocking by themselves. Silicon has a band gap of 1.1 eV. Any photons above this energy will be absorbed across the gap, and interfere with the circuitry. Firing a xenon flash close to something will result in an instantaneous light flux many hundreds of times larger than direct sunlight. So the circuit might be designed to be resistant to any ambient lighting situations, but not to being flashed. As a commentator mentioned below, U16 is a switched mode power supply circuit. It's analogue, and switching quite fast. It doesn't take much for it to be disrupted & mess up a few cycles, possibly even then triggering some protection circuitry on the inputs of chips down the line. Blue tack, being an insulator, will be almost totally transparent to radio frequencies.
- ridgeguy 12y ago
  I think the reason lightning doesn't perturb FM transmissions much is that lightning, being a source of additional energy in the receiver's passband, is an amplitude modulation interference source, whereas FM transmits its information by Frequency Modulation, which is nominally insensitive to AM EMI sources. Any amateur radio operator in the Midwest or Florida using AM on 144MHz will tell you that lightning for sure interferes with reception. With FM, not so much.
  - caf 12y ago
    I have heard the spectrum of lightning EMI described as "from DC to daylight".
shortimer 12y ago
Can the original poster just try putting a sheet of cardboard in front of the flash and see if it affects the 'scope results?
encoderer 12y ago
On the original thread, official Pi engineers have diagnosed this as light interference on a specific unshielded circuit. Just wanted you to know.
na85 12y ago
Hi, you should have a look elsewhere in these comments where a HN user has reproduced it with his camera flash, but used a piece of cardboard to block the light and the Pi behaved normally. Cardboard (and I'll wager the blue tack also) has negligible EM shielding effect, so I'd say that's pretty conclusive that it's a photoelectric problem.
userbinator 12y ago
From this large picture, https://blog.adafruit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Pi_II_top_ORIG.jpg https://blog.adafruit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Pi_II_t... U16 appears to be in a WLCSP package (and others have noted that it is "shiny", which would also agree with the typical appearance of one), and WLCSPs do not have much of a package - they're essentially bare die that have had solder bumps attached to their top surface, and are mounted upside-down ("flip-chip" style) onto the PCB. It won't take much light intensity to cause photoelectric effects on a WLCSP. More info here: https://ez.analog.com/docs/DOC-2357 https://ez.analog.com/docs/DOC-2357

by swamp40 12y ago

lotsofmangos 12y ago

A light flash is an EMP. Radio waves are light. They also, unless they are very short, pass easily through blue-tack. When they get that short they are basically becoming infra-red anyway. Then we have a wide range through the visible spectrum, up through UV, that blue-tack stops, until we start getting towards x-rays and blue-tack starts to become transparent again. This is caused by an electromagnetic pulse, but of one in or close to the visible spectrum, otherwise blue-tack would be useless. edit : The word light is commonly used as shorthand for variously the whole EM band, the near visible EM band and just the visible EM band. If you are talking about the speed of light, it includes radio and gamma. Discussing the colour of light on the other hand and you are referencing the visual system. As soon as you start talking about visible light however, you are widening the definition of light again to include IR and UV and more, otherwise you would not need to clarify with the word visible. edit 2 - darkmighty. I am not talking about the xenon bulb producing an RF EMP from the lamp flashing circuit, I am merely continuing the terminology used elsewhere in this thread, that a flash of visible light is also quite clearly a form of electromagnetic pulse. edit 3 - foobarbecue. Radio as it gets shorter becomes microwave, then IR, then red, through green, past blue, goes to UV, then xrays, then gamma.

krenoten 12y ago
To the downvoters of the above comment: if it's technically incorrect, say so. I don't know if it is or not, but it's certainly not an offensively worded comment. When you downvote rather than respond, you are actually spreading ignorance. A downvote is an effort to mute. A half-muted incorrect technical comment will encourage far more ignorance than a properly corrected, visible one. Don't encourage ignorance.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- _almosnow 12y ago
  True that, I always see downvotes without replies as nonsense. If they could argue something reasonable about the statement then they would post it, but since they don't do it then it's probably a downvote "just because I don't like the guy".
darkmighty 12y ago
Ok I think the biggest misconception here is conflating the EMP with the Xenon lamp flash. The EMP is generated by the lamp/flashing circuit, which is essentially acting like a small (but not atomic) dipole antenna excited by a pulse. Therefore it has a distinctive cut-off frequency, probably in the 10s of Mhz range but I'm not sure exactly (something like this: [1]). This pulse is picked up by wires that act as antenna, and you get RF interference. The Xenon flash has also a distinct spectrum, but it's essentially contained in the visible light range (in a log-frequency spectral density plot) [2], which is what you want with a lamp! This emission is absorbed by the semiconductor material by exciting bandgaps: displacing electrons causing voltage spikes. [1] http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/ew-radar-handbook/images/imgw27.gif http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/ew-radar-handboo... [2] http://www.ushio.co.jp/images/en/products/list/lamp/lamp_07_img_02.gif http://www.ushio.co.jp/images/en/products/list/lamp/lamp_07_...
foobarbecue 12y ago
"When they get that short they are basically becoming infra-red anyway." You mean UV. You got your spectrum backwards. You should probably just admit your error here -- it's light, not radio waves, causing the effect. Sure, they're part of a common spectrum, but your statement "radio waves are light" is obviously false. It's a bit like saying "red is blue". Edit: I misread the above, lotsofmangos was talking about wavelengths coming from the radio site of the spectrum rather than light, so he didn't get it backwards. The rest of this post stands.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  I have been saying all along that it is electromagnetic waves in the visible or near visible spectrum causing the effect, otherwise the bluetack would not work. As to saying that radio is light, if calculating the propagation speed of a radio wave, you don't talk about its speed of radio, you talk about its speed of light. In many technical contexts, light is one of the default terms. Also, there would be no need for the term 'visible light' if light could not be used to describe electromagnetic radiation outside the visible spectrum. Infra-red and ultra-violet are commonly thought of as light and you can even create lensing optics for radio waves and for x-rays. http://www.rozendalassociates.com/Luneberg/index.htm http://www.rozendalassociates.com/Luneberg/index.htm https://www.imt.kit.edu/english/236.php https://www.imt.kit.edu/english/236.php
  - djmips 12y ago
    Agree, not sure why you were downvoted. EMP is photons. They were already considering the non visible spectrum when talking UV. There's a real prejudice and ignorance regarding visible light versus the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

jarvist 12y ago

A xenon tube is not a spark gap, in terms of the early radio receiver 'spark gaps' which were a primitive tuned circuit used to then feed an antenna (it wasn't the spark itself that was used for the transmission). Sparks produce a broadband radio signal, that decays strongly with increasing frequency. Very little is present in the Megahertz region, which is why lightening doesn't interfere with FM radio that much. Radio frequencies below the gigahertz or high megahertz region will not interfere with the Pi as the wavelength of these is too long to effectively couple into the short circuit board traces. Xenon flash tubes are not that noisy in terms of unwanted RF. Apart from anything else, you wouldn't be allowed to sell such radiating circuits in consumer equipment. A xenon flash puts out an enormous amount of blackbody light (high in IR and NIR) in a very short time frame (as short as 100 ns). Plastics are not very IR blocking by themselves. Silicon has a band gap of 1.1 eV. Any photons above this energy will be absorbed across the gap, and interfere with the circuitry. Firing a xenon flash close to something will result in an instantaneous light flux many hundreds of times larger than direct sunlight. So the circuit might be designed to be resistant to any ambient lighting situations, but not to being flashed. As a commentator mentioned below, U16 is a switched mode power supply circuit. It's analogue, and switching quite fast. It doesn't take much for it to be disrupted & mess up a few cycles, possibly even then triggering some protection circuitry on the inputs of chips down the line. Blue tack, being an insulator, will be almost totally transparent to radio frequencies.

ridgeguy 12y ago
I think the reason lightning doesn't perturb FM transmissions much is that lightning, being a source of additional energy in the receiver's passband, is an amplitude modulation interference source, whereas FM transmits its information by Frequency Modulation, which is nominally insensitive to AM EMI sources. Any amateur radio operator in the Midwest or Florida using AM on 144MHz will tell you that lightning for sure interferes with reception. With FM, not so much.
- caf 12y ago
  I have heard the spectrum of lightning EMI described as "from DC to daylight".

shortimer 12y ago

Can the original poster just try putting a sheet of cardboard in front of the flash and see if it affects the 'scope results?

encoderer 12y ago

On the original thread, official Pi engineers have diagnosed this as light interference on a specific unshielded circuit. Just wanted you to know.

na85 12y ago

Hi, you should have a look elsewhere in these comments where a HN user has reproduced it with his camera flash, but used a piece of cardboard to block the light and the Pi behaved normally. Cardboard (and I'll wager the blue tack also) has negligible EM shielding effect, so I'd say that's pretty conclusive that it's a photoelectric problem.

userbinator 12y ago

From this large picture, https://blog.adafruit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Pi_II_top_ORIG.jpg https://blog.adafruit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Pi_II_t... U16 appears to be in a WLCSP package (and others have noted that it is "shiny", which would also agree with the typical appearance of one), and WLCSPs do not have much of a package - they're essentially bare die that have had solder bumps attached to their top surface, and are mounted upside-down ("flip-chip" style) onto the PCB. It won't take much light intensity to cause photoelectric effects on a WLCSP. More info here: https://ez.analog.com/docs/DOC-2357 https://ez.analog.com/docs/DOC-2357