5 ms·

Calling yourself a Software Engineer when you're not is like calling yourself a Surgeon when you're a Nurse. A Software Engineering degree is way more difficul

Calling yourself a Software Engineer when you're not is like calling yourself a Surgeon when you're a Nurse. A Software Engineering degree is way more difficult than a Computer Science degree, they are not the same. A 3rd of students drop down to Computer Science or something else after they fail in the first 2 years. This is at least the case in Canada.

dylandempsey 12y ago
I like how this will get down voted because people don't like it. This is a fact, you will not be recognized in Canada as a Professional Engineer and if you claim you are one in your practice there are legal consequences, the same if you practice as a doctor without the acknowledged certification. I am just stating facts...
- dllthomas 12y ago
  I don't think it's "because people don't like it", but rather because it's only true in a few countries that most HNers neither live nor work in, and you spoke as if it was applicable everywhere. That, on top of the fact that the article had nothing to do with the term "Software Engineer."
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Facts of Canada, not the entire world. The counterpoint is equally valid in other countries. I can call myself an engineer all I want, nobody will bat an eyelid[1]. [1] Well, not me personally, I do hold an electronics engineering degree.
- nrmitchi 12y ago
  The fact that you cannot claim to be an engineer in Canada without the appropriate credentials is a fact. Your statement that "[a] Software Engineering degree is way more difficult than a Computer Science degree" is not a fact. I have seen this whole 'CS vs SE' debate in the past, typically in a joking manner. Your manner however is downright insulting.
  - dylandempsey 12y ago
    Apparently only in Canada but it is a longer degree with many more courses and is considered (here) to be more difficult to obtain. This doesn't seem to be the case in the US though. Cheers.
EddSeabrook 12y ago
At my university, Software Engineering was the same as Computer Science except for a few module restrictions in the third and fourth years.
rifung 12y ago
My title is literally "Software Development Engineer". I don't actually call myself an engineer, but it's ridiculous to say that I shouldn't be allowed to call myself one when my company seems to think I, along with thousands of other people, am one.
Alchier 12y ago
This is not the case in the United States.
jerf 12y ago
Isn't it cultural imperialism or something to insist that other cultures honor the standards of your own? Seriously, this whole "my culture says you need this certification X to be an engineer so you can't be one if you don't have it" is just a stupid definitional debate. It doesn't even matter if you win... nothing changes! Not a single person will lose their job Monday or even so much as change their title even if you somehow "win". So who really cares?
- dylandempsey 12y ago
  I am only stating what it is in Canada and many other countries as a response to "this is the way it is in the States" viewpoint. Having proper accreditation means when I visit a doctor, I know they have the skill sets required and not someone that just wants to be a doctor. Software has become more and more important to things like personal and financial safety, national security and to ensure in general planes don't drop out of the sky because there was a bug in the autopilot. This is why it's been separated in many countries. If you lie about your accreditation in Canada, you will definitely lose your job.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    So everywhere else in the world should do exactly as I do and given that both the Uk and USA (the two largest English speaking technical nations) don't enforce CEng / PE to use the term engineer I am not sure what your point is.
  - brudgers 12y ago
    Do you have a professional license?
  - jerf 12y ago
    GEE GOLLY GOSH I FIGURED THAT OUT FROM ALL THE OTHER POSTS. Seriously, what was the point of your posting that YET AGAIN? Could you not infer that I already knew that from the contents of my post? You're moving beyond tedious into making me wonder if there isn't actually something a bit wrong with you people who can't stop talking about this when it's not even on topic.
emergentcypher 12y ago
In the USA they don't have the same "protected" status or definition of "engineer" that exists in parts of Canada. In Quebec, only graduates with a degree in engineering can legally call themselves an engineer. In the USA, anybody can call themselves an engineer... there isn't the same distinction between Computer Science and Software Engineering.
- dylandempsey 12y ago
  Thanks, very different indeed.
- geebee 12y ago
  There are some restrictions on how and when you can use the term engineer in the US. I believe the way it works is that the are practice restrictions and title restrictions. For instance, I wouldn't be allowed to call myself a Structural Engineer or practice as a Structural Engineer without the proper licensing. Industrial Engineering, on the other hand, is just a title restriction - you need to pass the Industrial Engineering PE to call yourself one, but there's no restriction on practice associated with it [1] But yeah, generally speaking, sticking the word "engineer" after something is allowed here. You can be a "special effects engineer" or a "sanitation engineer" or whatever. "Software Engineer" is actually controlled in a few states, though. One other thing to keep in mind is that in the US, elite universities like MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, and so forth typically offer a CS degree, but not a software engineering degree - though top CS programs are often ABET accredited. [1] http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/appinstpe.shtml http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/appinstpe.shtml
dblotsky 12y ago
What a load of crap. You also can't call a Ferrari a Lamborghini because they're trademarks. When someone says "your race car isn't a Ferrari so you shouldn't call it a race car", we look at them funny, scold their irrelevant and shallow opinion, and redirect our attention to someone more mature.
tiwfm2 12y ago
Anecdotally, the SE & Non-CS courses I've taken (at a well-known US university) were kind of joke business-y classes; 90% of the time I spent on those courses was in lecture. What you say may be true in Canada, but I'm pretty sure at best the opposite is true in the US (in terms of direction of attrition). But it's probably better to just admit that different fields are different, and rank-ordering is nothing more or less than a way to start flame wars and make people feel inferior for not being like you. edit: also, your analogy is completely absurd. Even in Canada, the schooling/accreditation disparity between RNs and doctors is completely incomparable to the schooling disparity introduced by choice of undergraduate major...
- dylandempsey 12y ago
  Absurd in the States. My analogy was to show that falsifying your title as an engineer here is the same as claiming to be a doctor, both are against the law here. The course load for SE is higher and it's a longer degree so the number of courses required to obtain it is actually a lot more (here).
dylandempsey 12y ago
Pretty surprised how many people are so offended. I apologise. But this is not an opinion and it is indeed apparently very different than the states which I wasn't aware. I didnt say anyone was better than someone else, just stating facts that certain titles require more accreditation, the same as other designations and using the medical field as an example since it's also upheld by the law in the same way. Calling yourself an engineer in Canada if you're not is illegal. Apologies again to anyone who was offended.
morgante 12y ago
Be careful about applying your specific experience (from your country) to slander entire groups of people. For one thing, engineer is not a protected term in the US. It's not at all like the fraud which would be committed by a nurse calling himself a surgeon. More importantly, the majority of excellent US universities don't even have a "software engineering" degree. Almost universally, the good developers I see coming out of top universities majored in "computer science." Anecdotally, most people with "software engineering" degrees come from shitty vocational programs. We'd all be better off if we stopped fussing over titles and realized that the only reasonable way to evaluate someone is to look at their actual experience/education.
- dylandempsey 12y ago
  Thanks, yes it seems to be very different. It takes longer to get a SE degree in Canada so a clear distinction is made. By no means would I even say that it's necessarily better as I've hired and worked with some amazing developers with no post secondary education at all, so good people are good people. But it is a longer degree with quite a few more courses and a clear distinction is made if you decide to pursue it here. Cheers.
mahyarm 12y ago
That is mostly because the class workload requirements are higher. In terms of math, csc, and seng courses you would be taking, it's fairly similar. It's because you have to take the general engineering core where you learn the start of mechanical, electrical and other engineering specialities and you take ~5 high workload classes per semester than ~4 to make up for it. So the amount of stuff you study is about is more broad because you are studying other somewhat unrelated topics. It's more like working 60hrs/wk vs 40hrs/wk as a nurse. Your still just being a nurse.
- ckcheng 12y ago
  Besides workload issues, I think some people who drop computer/software engineering programs to go into computing science programs may simply be finding that they have no interest in things like physics or chemistry at the university level. First year engineering courses in Canada, at least at the universities I know of, are pretty similar across all of its sub-disciplines. At UBC, first year courses include 4 physics courses (1 of which is a lab course) and 1 chem course [1]. At U of Alberta, first year courses include 1 physics course, 2 mechanics courses, and 2 chem courses [2]. At both UBC and U of A, first year engineering students get to take just one course on computing science/programming. So if you love to code and go into engineering to become a software engineer in Canada, you better also at least tolerate taking a bunch of chemistry and physics/mechanics courses... [1] http://students.engineering.ubc.ca/registering-courses http://students.engineering.ubc.ca/registering-courses [2] http://www.engineering.ualberta.ca/ProspectiveStudents/FirstYearTimetable.aspx http://www.engineering.ualberta.ca/ProspectiveStudents/First...

dylandempsey 12y ago

I like how this will get down voted because people don't like it. This is a fact, you will not be recognized in Canada as a Professional Engineer and if you claim you are one in your practice there are legal consequences, the same if you practice as a doctor without the acknowledged certification. I am just stating facts...

dllthomas 12y ago
I don't think it's "because people don't like it", but rather because it's only true in a few countries that most HNers neither live nor work in, and you spoke as if it was applicable everywhere. That, on top of the fact that the article had nothing to do with the term "Software Engineer."
StavrosK 12y ago
Facts of Canada, not the entire world. The counterpoint is equally valid in other countries. I can call myself an engineer all I want, nobody will bat an eyelid[1]. [1] Well, not me personally, I do hold an electronics engineering degree.
nrmitchi 12y ago
The fact that you cannot claim to be an engineer in Canada without the appropriate credentials is a fact. Your statement that "[a] Software Engineering degree is way more difficult than a Computer Science degree" is not a fact. I have seen this whole 'CS vs SE' debate in the past, typically in a joking manner. Your manner however is downright insulting.
- dylandempsey 12y ago
  Apparently only in Canada but it is a longer degree with many more courses and is considered (here) to be more difficult to obtain. This doesn't seem to be the case in the US though. Cheers.

EddSeabrook 12y ago

At my university, Software Engineering was the same as Computer Science except for a few module restrictions in the third and fourth years.

rifung 12y ago

My title is literally "Software Development Engineer". I don't actually call myself an engineer, but it's ridiculous to say that I shouldn't be allowed to call myself one when my company seems to think I, along with thousands of other people, am one.

Alchier 12y ago

This is not the case in the United States.

jerf 12y ago

Isn't it cultural imperialism or something to insist that other cultures honor the standards of your own? Seriously, this whole "my culture says you need this certification X to be an engineer so you can't be one if you don't have it" is just a stupid definitional debate. It doesn't even matter if you win... nothing changes! Not a single person will lose their job Monday or even so much as change their title even if you somehow "win". So who really cares?

dylandempsey 12y ago
I am only stating what it is in Canada and many other countries as a response to "this is the way it is in the States" viewpoint. Having proper accreditation means when I visit a doctor, I know they have the skill sets required and not someone that just wants to be a doctor. Software has become more and more important to things like personal and financial safety, national security and to ensure in general planes don't drop out of the sky because there was a bug in the autopilot. This is why it's been separated in many countries. If you lie about your accreditation in Canada, you will definitely lose your job.
- walshemj 12y ago
  So everywhere else in the world should do exactly as I do and given that both the Uk and USA (the two largest English speaking technical nations) don't enforce CEng / PE to use the term engineer I am not sure what your point is.
- brudgers 12y ago
  Do you have a professional license?
- jerf 12y ago
  GEE GOLLY GOSH I FIGURED THAT OUT FROM ALL THE OTHER POSTS. Seriously, what was the point of your posting that YET AGAIN? Could you not infer that I already knew that from the contents of my post? You're moving beyond tedious into making me wonder if there isn't actually something a bit wrong with you people who can't stop talking about this when it's not even on topic.

emergentcypher 12y ago

In the USA they don't have the same "protected" status or definition of "engineer" that exists in parts of Canada. In Quebec, only graduates with a degree in engineering can legally call themselves an engineer. In the USA, anybody can call themselves an engineer... there isn't the same distinction between Computer Science and Software Engineering.

dylandempsey 12y ago
Thanks, very different indeed.
geebee 12y ago
There are some restrictions on how and when you can use the term engineer in the US. I believe the way it works is that the are practice restrictions and title restrictions. For instance, I wouldn't be allowed to call myself a Structural Engineer or practice as a Structural Engineer without the proper licensing. Industrial Engineering, on the other hand, is just a title restriction - you need to pass the Industrial Engineering PE to call yourself one, but there's no restriction on practice associated with it [1] But yeah, generally speaking, sticking the word "engineer" after something is allowed here. You can be a "special effects engineer" or a "sanitation engineer" or whatever. "Software Engineer" is actually controlled in a few states, though. One other thing to keep in mind is that in the US, elite universities like MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, and so forth typically offer a CS degree, but not a software engineering degree - though top CS programs are often ABET accredited. [1] http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/appinstpe.shtml http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/appinstpe.shtml

dblotsky 12y ago

What a load of crap. You also can't call a Ferrari a Lamborghini because they're trademarks. When someone says "your race car isn't a Ferrari so you shouldn't call it a race car", we look at them funny, scold their irrelevant and shallow opinion, and redirect our attention to someone more mature.

tiwfm2 12y ago

Anecdotally, the SE & Non-CS courses I've taken (at a well-known US university) were kind of joke business-y classes; 90% of the time I spent on those courses was in lecture. What you say may be true in Canada, but I'm pretty sure at best the opposite is true in the US (in terms of direction of attrition). But it's probably better to just admit that different fields are different, and rank-ordering is nothing more or less than a way to start flame wars and make people feel inferior for not being like you. edit: also, your analogy is completely absurd. Even in Canada, the schooling/accreditation disparity between RNs and doctors is completely incomparable to the schooling disparity introduced by choice of undergraduate major...

dylandempsey 12y ago
Absurd in the States. My analogy was to show that falsifying your title as an engineer here is the same as claiming to be a doctor, both are against the law here. The course load for SE is higher and it's a longer degree so the number of courses required to obtain it is actually a lot more (here).

dylandempsey 12y ago

Pretty surprised how many people are so offended. I apologise. But this is not an opinion and it is indeed apparently very different than the states which I wasn't aware. I didnt say anyone was better than someone else, just stating facts that certain titles require more accreditation, the same as other designations and using the medical field as an example since it's also upheld by the law in the same way. Calling yourself an engineer in Canada if you're not is illegal. Apologies again to anyone who was offended.

morgante 12y ago

Be careful about applying your specific experience (from your country) to slander entire groups of people. For one thing, engineer is not a protected term in the US. It's not at all like the fraud which would be committed by a nurse calling himself a surgeon. More importantly, the majority of excellent US universities don't even have a "software engineering" degree. Almost universally, the good developers I see coming out of top universities majored in "computer science." Anecdotally, most people with "software engineering" degrees come from shitty vocational programs. We'd all be better off if we stopped fussing over titles and realized that the only reasonable way to evaluate someone is to look at their actual experience/education.

dylandempsey 12y ago
Thanks, yes it seems to be very different. It takes longer to get a SE degree in Canada so a clear distinction is made. By no means would I even say that it's necessarily better as I've hired and worked with some amazing developers with no post secondary education at all, so good people are good people. But it is a longer degree with quite a few more courses and a clear distinction is made if you decide to pursue it here. Cheers.

mahyarm 12y ago

That is mostly because the class workload requirements are higher. In terms of math, csc, and seng courses you would be taking, it's fairly similar. It's because you have to take the general engineering core where you learn the start of mechanical, electrical and other engineering specialities and you take ~5 high workload classes per semester than ~4 to make up for it. So the amount of stuff you study is about is more broad because you are studying other somewhat unrelated topics. It's more like working 60hrs/wk vs 40hrs/wk as a nurse. Your still just being a nurse.

ckcheng 12y ago
Besides workload issues, I think some people who drop computer/software engineering programs to go into computing science programs may simply be finding that they have no interest in things like physics or chemistry at the university level. First year engineering courses in Canada, at least at the universities I know of, are pretty similar across all of its sub-disciplines. At UBC, first year courses include 4 physics courses (1 of which is a lab course) and 1 chem course [1]. At U of Alberta, first year courses include 1 physics course, 2 mechanics courses, and 2 chem courses [2]. At both UBC and U of A, first year engineering students get to take just one course on computing science/programming. So if you love to code and go into engineering to become a software engineer in Canada, you better also at least tolerate taking a bunch of chemistry and physics/mechanics courses... [1] http://students.engineering.ubc.ca/registering-courses http://students.engineering.ubc.ca/registering-courses [2] http://www.engineering.ualberta.ca/ProspectiveStudents/FirstYearTimetable.aspx http://www.engineering.ualberta.ca/ProspectiveStudents/First...