5 ms·

This sounds like an implementation as opposed to design flaw. Enigmail should be throwing up red flags all over the place when duplicates exist. That being sai

This sounds like an implementation as opposed to design flaw. Enigmail should be throwing up red flags all over the place when duplicates exist. That being said, this is perilously close to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

dredmorbius 12y ago
I'd be really, really cautious about throwing "No True Scotsman" at Seth David Schoen and Erinn Clark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Schoen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Schoen His hopelessly out-of-date homepage: http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ That said, yes, PGP has a notable failing in that there's no reliable method for repudiating a key, particularly one generated by a hostile party. If you've hung on to your key revocation certificate you can revoke a key you have generated. But that's only a small part of the battle.
- schoen 12y ago
  I'm sorry my homepage is out of date; thanks for the reminder. It seems like it's been a decade or so since I updated it. I normally check signatures when downloading a new key, particularly as a way of distinguishing between multiple keys available on a keyserver. But I don't have a way to force other people who are writing to me to do that, and apparently at least the Enigmail users often don't. Edit: Erinn is a more cautious PGP user than I am (with an extraordinarily important key!), but I expect she also has no way of forcing people to check that they have the right key when e-mailing her.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    Including your key signature everywhere you post your email address (homepage, business card, email signature, etc.) is a good practice. It's not perfect, but it's better than teaching users to go straight to a keyserver.
    - schoen 12y ago
      I do have my key and/or fingerprint on my * personal e-mail .signature * personal home page * work employee page * business card I don't have my key or fingerprint on my * work e-mail .signature Despite this, 12 people accepted the fake key as genuine.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    I check up on you from time to time. Virtunova's been offline for ages as well. I'm kicking around ways of making email more reliable, one option that occurs to me is key negotiation at transmit time, or as part of the delivery process. That is: a user's home mailserver would be key-aware. Though that too is subject to skulduggery. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1 hQIMA7xDFKsys5UtARAAxMhajUMAOzPLYSruMqKC8tOX1Ky0TScotJICEcfl2MML gUvhTShRK0UPLtuXxT+emnKaqAJfPM4RzcuMo6mSIzEnZKGjCa49E+mQIp2129hH dktyMfNeA7bF2n+FxFpSmv9hF4IihVXwOmdu3OzXrEjYcHpYR8kh5MoANErJAMPj mCWPfpqqxpLQ7IQGUCu3FYZ1/pbHEfmKa/nOpvAr4zGciFb9p8Jir2ujbxfRGySU RVEplGeC4vLUlwnRjXENCONtJVKv4oL+e+Z+MKziKhoiNGX5NQTA4AEc958a7Aew HVQDoRnqYZf9pa4hiqIR2TNyxKfkAxrUtTs8g19VDKPynmTR5oiao+fpZShzMVLF Wza0KDi+fOqCbZT/1iBVkkyiQt1hEvQBSVyqoxK7MPNshn5dRpFY+Y8oSFHcFosM +TYk0O9LWMfPjW9eFOpBQHi0orUgJ+X45Pxukn2aBC3Sw9r57ubXTeTTJ9d4Xk9W QU6SZdL+MrUIFIjOPcd9fB3DCGeT4P56Y+c2L2nkOQRbbwJKRwynBNuJ1YuoMcIS +3x1+UQzjrCv1E1K0MkGayI4SCFLznDK3zZOzVVpGesUXeI7tm8ix6q+GO2FfhbC ClBirm6OJcSKr0E0ABVR8tsAyJn2fECA9ssuIm7x+sC8RcjRrzMGgx/eVTXASdSF AgwDo9/BBkoA4X8BEACAlqrZ3xGRdbJILBXjbmiOe264sNQuQ+DD4OFLhgMI88Cu WmpKOlHjLDcgmgWLUcbjKCYEgNpqysSUexPNv2sk7sjqBhyPK3UcqgZnnrONbuea IcJZ3NBTBSkmzv3c9bGFCV7Mt1uKp3gajUXCrlZ1otWo9xRLwlDd1VolrgoWqwot P0qHclUuVa/DFuHsplosY43zOfcVm9z1thMJE/avgSqwSej50JHvawADVAiVCm8U pmKE73BDV5uo20xjaZ4rhUcc4iv+VKnENNPR1mYPjPo92bdtRF7zmwCwum3nj37c 53/Q6AvUXt0gCwOIfAaARwyZZGT1d9BC4NCc8cB70lvHQHTkT/qLbZbYoi2TA7bd k+cR683BuGrBfTLlSXAwvKzppsWocpiJdTdzYlatPH5sAxb4q1MDLpr++hr5V+cd yHj+8W0SEjsxqNUN3seHpkM/kefLN/gq0vBzb6kJUVz4eJM7nPlmMo5hmwT0P+HW s+Pn/ZqLUrLlQyuWIEsoONq95DZ1FjMSgQB37+4Oo0wtmGG3fNF6hR5rgp5mkEu/ 7zuTzRA51s5kz/pVoqC3FA70S5ZdiIRUoUggjb4W+Rwan2crOzfzVH6JZMRAqlPe 4Y2fQRGU5SDmByR07DsgSXsLgwPyTy/TFtT37B70zw6CH0p/XYTGbsG7ta3G+dJb AQFoYZyRld4hhNL5BtvrM9WCL9XTwnuYACN0dhW/ym6E7HLY3gq5ahMQj4vLlafY Z68YabNxRG0eF7errJDWg+itjtgge4zgaXxPUf/h/gpPE5+chSuaSfHpjw== =zY2a - -----END PGP MESSAGE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJU1UEGAAoJEKxvHoRCCre9JiIP/iZQoi2C501kj8bMHNMF05d4 4LwEsfmOFBPfDlK5+YP4U48j9nJyMt1eQcA5UqsHGAsZ78hnmXsZTD+LwEE0Tn7f DD5gMWLt4vulKxblR1Md8A+lfAK0YYzH1dhJbg6KWF9znpg7zeb34t4fWz82bGZ8 FmEJuiI4HqfxCfKwmd8knDZ0rrrBJcZAsc/v5KnVN8zB+bumUX9SLcR1fF1p62nK tfB/Ri3taEPoz9OXfC4Lmniovu0BbiqIdWBp9vBvYQHp0jIVReKJE+O+NuvGkApR +oZp17S6nkf3LZTLzSi1bO6TOetMnG+TZhCXHP45JcPTg8Hr7MftuymD+qjbRhLR WnV6MwYZZns1ZWBjXh5w1zx8vhKyxTbJ0rupoY82hg3nXPInTCyZZAAwFE9+Hsh4 Dbxflr6+9Xt0Mp+BQvkEsL45haCGKtnpyzDrfYqkomKq03D09MIRQFkG8ZX9KEuU kviw7rQjvDKetwN1gmI+gdEwAmJeDH0gCUijjTOKmy8nBD4i2x4GknDxyUX24HYf FpyIRtV/MlJwjxa2+0J5vC92QhDzT3rCsAQC/iHkm+B+HdxOpM26Qyu6WbwhXrY5 /E1kYTK6gTiaeDcaax2/V62OTie4JbXV0/ZUXfDMyVa0Yr1Qi0Y7aArB1A0xB6Pg 5tpyUQ14Uo9fGMXoLKfa =py+D -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
  No, I mean that my argument there was perilously close to said fallacy.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    Hrm. Not sure I see that, but that's more acceptable ;-)
- fubarred 12y ago
  PGP is fine. People aren't using it correctly. The point of Web of Trust is to only trust keys that other people you know have also signed. Everything else is garbage until proven otherwise. Key servers are untrustworthy because anyone can upload random shit to them. Trying to shift WoT to a third party is trying to get something for free that doesn't emphasize solving the problem: getting everyone you know signing keys of only other people they know. https://www.kernel.org/signature.html#kernel-org-web-of-trust https://www.kernel.org/signature.html#kernel-org-web-of-trus...
  - joepie91_ 12y ago
    PGP is extremely hard to use, so no, it's not "fine". Usability is just as important as (if not more important than) cryptographical correctness!

dredmorbius 12y ago

I'd be really, really cautious about throwing "No True Scotsman" at Seth David Schoen and Erinn Clark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Schoen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Schoen His hopelessly out-of-date homepage: http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ That said, yes, PGP has a notable failing in that there's no reliable method for repudiating a key, particularly one generated by a hostile party. If you've hung on to your key revocation certificate you can revoke a key you have generated. But that's only a small part of the battle.

schoen 12y ago
I'm sorry my homepage is out of date; thanks for the reminder. It seems like it's been a decade or so since I updated it. I normally check signatures when downloading a new key, particularly as a way of distinguishing between multiple keys available on a keyserver. But I don't have a way to force other people who are writing to me to do that, and apparently at least the Enigmail users often don't. Edit: Erinn is a more cautious PGP user than I am (with an extraordinarily important key!), but I expect she also has no way of forcing people to check that they have the right key when e-mailing her.
- dublinben 12y ago
  Including your key signature everywhere you post your email address (homepage, business card, email signature, etc.) is a good practice. It's not perfect, but it's better than teaching users to go straight to a keyserver.
  - schoen 12y ago
    I do have my key and/or fingerprint on my * personal e-mail .signature * personal home page * work employee page * business card I don't have my key or fingerprint on my * work e-mail .signature Despite this, 12 people accepted the fake key as genuine.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  I check up on you from time to time. Virtunova's been offline for ages as well. I'm kicking around ways of making email more reliable, one option that occurs to me is key negotiation at transmit time, or as part of the delivery process. That is: a user's home mailserver would be key-aware. Though that too is subject to skulduggery. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1 hQIMA7xDFKsys5UtARAAxMhajUMAOzPLYSruMqKC8tOX1Ky0TScotJICEcfl2MML gUvhTShRK0UPLtuXxT+emnKaqAJfPM4RzcuMo6mSIzEnZKGjCa49E+mQIp2129hH dktyMfNeA7bF2n+FxFpSmv9hF4IihVXwOmdu3OzXrEjYcHpYR8kh5MoANErJAMPj mCWPfpqqxpLQ7IQGUCu3FYZ1/pbHEfmKa/nOpvAr4zGciFb9p8Jir2ujbxfRGySU RVEplGeC4vLUlwnRjXENCONtJVKv4oL+e+Z+MKziKhoiNGX5NQTA4AEc958a7Aew HVQDoRnqYZf9pa4hiqIR2TNyxKfkAxrUtTs8g19VDKPynmTR5oiao+fpZShzMVLF Wza0KDi+fOqCbZT/1iBVkkyiQt1hEvQBSVyqoxK7MPNshn5dRpFY+Y8oSFHcFosM +TYk0O9LWMfPjW9eFOpBQHi0orUgJ+X45Pxukn2aBC3Sw9r57ubXTeTTJ9d4Xk9W QU6SZdL+MrUIFIjOPcd9fB3DCGeT4P56Y+c2L2nkOQRbbwJKRwynBNuJ1YuoMcIS +3x1+UQzjrCv1E1K0MkGayI4SCFLznDK3zZOzVVpGesUXeI7tm8ix6q+GO2FfhbC ClBirm6OJcSKr0E0ABVR8tsAyJn2fECA9ssuIm7x+sC8RcjRrzMGgx/eVTXASdSF AgwDo9/BBkoA4X8BEACAlqrZ3xGRdbJILBXjbmiOe264sNQuQ+DD4OFLhgMI88Cu WmpKOlHjLDcgmgWLUcbjKCYEgNpqysSUexPNv2sk7sjqBhyPK3UcqgZnnrONbuea IcJZ3NBTBSkmzv3c9bGFCV7Mt1uKp3gajUXCrlZ1otWo9xRLwlDd1VolrgoWqwot P0qHclUuVa/DFuHsplosY43zOfcVm9z1thMJE/avgSqwSej50JHvawADVAiVCm8U pmKE73BDV5uo20xjaZ4rhUcc4iv+VKnENNPR1mYPjPo92bdtRF7zmwCwum3nj37c 53/Q6AvUXt0gCwOIfAaARwyZZGT1d9BC4NCc8cB70lvHQHTkT/qLbZbYoi2TA7bd k+cR683BuGrBfTLlSXAwvKzppsWocpiJdTdzYlatPH5sAxb4q1MDLpr++hr5V+cd yHj+8W0SEjsxqNUN3seHpkM/kefLN/gq0vBzb6kJUVz4eJM7nPlmMo5hmwT0P+HW s+Pn/ZqLUrLlQyuWIEsoONq95DZ1FjMSgQB37+4Oo0wtmGG3fNF6hR5rgp5mkEu/ 7zuTzRA51s5kz/pVoqC3FA70S5ZdiIRUoUggjb4W+Rwan2crOzfzVH6JZMRAqlPe 4Y2fQRGU5SDmByR07DsgSXsLgwPyTy/TFtT37B70zw6CH0p/XYTGbsG7ta3G+dJb AQFoYZyRld4hhNL5BtvrM9WCL9XTwnuYACN0dhW/ym6E7HLY3gq5ahMQj4vLlafY Z68YabNxRG0eF7errJDWg+itjtgge4zgaXxPUf/h/gpPE5+chSuaSfHpjw== =zY2a - -----END PGP MESSAGE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJU1UEGAAoJEKxvHoRCCre9JiIP/iZQoi2C501kj8bMHNMF05d4 4LwEsfmOFBPfDlK5+YP4U48j9nJyMt1eQcA5UqsHGAsZ78hnmXsZTD+LwEE0Tn7f DD5gMWLt4vulKxblR1Md8A+lfAK0YYzH1dhJbg6KWF9znpg7zeb34t4fWz82bGZ8 FmEJuiI4HqfxCfKwmd8knDZ0rrrBJcZAsc/v5KnVN8zB+bumUX9SLcR1fF1p62nK tfB/Ri3taEPoz9OXfC4Lmniovu0BbiqIdWBp9vBvYQHp0jIVReKJE+O+NuvGkApR +oZp17S6nkf3LZTLzSi1bO6TOetMnG+TZhCXHP45JcPTg8Hr7MftuymD+qjbRhLR WnV6MwYZZns1ZWBjXh5w1zx8vhKyxTbJ0rupoY82hg3nXPInTCyZZAAwFE9+Hsh4 Dbxflr6+9Xt0Mp+BQvkEsL45haCGKtnpyzDrfYqkomKq03D09MIRQFkG8ZX9KEuU kviw7rQjvDKetwN1gmI+gdEwAmJeDH0gCUijjTOKmy8nBD4i2x4GknDxyUX24HYf FpyIRtV/MlJwjxa2+0J5vC92QhDzT3rCsAQC/iHkm+B+HdxOpM26Qyu6WbwhXrY5 /E1kYTK6gTiaeDcaax2/V62OTie4JbXV0/ZUXfDMyVa0Yr1Qi0Y7aArB1A0xB6Pg 5tpyUQ14Uo9fGMXoLKfa =py+D -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
No, I mean that my argument there was perilously close to said fallacy.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  Hrm. Not sure I see that, but that's more acceptable ;-)
fubarred 12y ago
PGP is fine. People aren't using it correctly. The point of Web of Trust is to only trust keys that other people you know have also signed. Everything else is garbage until proven otherwise. Key servers are untrustworthy because anyone can upload random shit to them. Trying to shift WoT to a third party is trying to get something for free that doesn't emphasize solving the problem: getting everyone you know signing keys of only other people they know. https://www.kernel.org/signature.html#kernel-org-web-of-trust https://www.kernel.org/signature.html#kernel-org-web-of-trus...
- joepie91_ 12y ago
  PGP is extremely hard to use, so no, it's not "fine". Usability is just as important as (if not more important than) cryptographical correctness!