9 ms·

In my opinion, this is the heart of the diversity problem. We spend a lot of time trying to improve the representation of adult women in tech. Wouldn't that be

In my opinion, this is the heart of the diversity problem. We spend a lot of time trying to improve the representation of adult women in tech. Wouldn't that be a whole lot easier if girls felt more comfortable growing up to become women in tech? I'm certain it's not just girls vs boys, either. I'm convinced adults are consciously and unconsciously acting as a giant sorting hat and shuffling children into preconceived interests, activities, and careers based not just on gender, but on ALL those things we like to hope don't matter but stubbornly persist in mattering: gender, race, ethnicity, wealth of parents, religious preference of parents, attractiveness, height, voice tonality, presupposed future sexual orientation, and on and on. We do have a really cool experiment that just started this year, though: a mandatory computer science curriculum in Britain[1]. It'll be a lot harder to convince impressionable kids that they are no good at computers (because they "don't look like it") when everyone is learning it from kindergarten on. It's unfortunate that we'll have to wait another 10 - 15 years to see what effect that will have, though. [1] http://pando.com/2014/02/10/by-next-year-coding-will-be-mandatory-in-british-schools-what-the-hell-america/ http://pando.com/2014/02/10/by-next-year-coding-will-be-mand...

njohnson41 12y ago
Hopefully mandatory computer science education doesn't fall into the same trap as mathematics, where the "introductory" version taught in grade school becomes so simplified and rote that it loses all of the qualities that make it creative and interesting. There is definitely a systemic problem of kids thinking they are "no good at math", despite an early introduction, and I'm not sure why CS would be so different. Of course, that's still a lot better than not having mandatory math classes at all.
- derefr 12y ago
  Indeed; what I'd really hope for, in the end, would be just beginning to teach discrete math (logic, set theory, graph theory, etc.) to kids starting when they're 11 or so. It's a lot easier, and a lot more fun, and tends to be a lot more appreciated by the kids than the random bits of pre-calculus (literally "things that are useless unless you later take calculus") we teach them in "Math" class! But, of course, everyone always derides the idea because "we tried this" with New Math in the 70s. No, we didn't. We tried to teach some parts of discrete math (which are formal abstractions) to 5- or 6-year-olds, who weren't yet at the formal operational stage of cognitive development. You can't teach a 6-year-old about set theory any more than you can teach a 6-week-old about object permanence. You have to start when they're older. But "older" doesn't mean "an optional thing to be taught at university!" It's a formative skill, and if you don't pick it up right when you're first able to pick it up, trying to force it into your mind later is somewhat like trying to learn a new spoken language in adulthood when you've been monolingual for your entire life until then.
amyjess 12y ago
Been lurking for a while, figured this'd be a good place to make my first post. I'm a trans woman (MtF). This isn't the first time (and it won't be the last) I've observed something about gender stereotypes just from having lived on both sides. One stereotype that's widely known in the trans community is that a disproportionately large percentage of trans women work in tech (or are tech hobbyists). The "MtF CS nerd" is probably the biggest trans stereotype I can think of. This stereotype doesn't extend to trans men (FtMs). In fact, it's assumed that the ratio of MtFs to FtMs in tech is about the same as the ratio of cis men to cis women in tech. In the main online trans community I run in, where this stereotype is endlessly touted as being true (often tongue-in-cheek), most of us start our transitions somewhere between 18-45 and by and large is biased towards people who started in our twenties (I started at 28, myself, and I'm 30 now). People who started before or after that are really rare in that particular community (there are other communities that swing younger or older, by the way -- I'm just talking about the group I run with). The only real conclusion is that whatever biased us towards or against careers in tech based on our perceived genders must have occurred in childhood, definitely before college and probably before high school as well. It probably happened in toddlerhood, really. There's an excellent SMBC comic on this, by the way, but I'm new and I don't know if posting a link will get this post tossed into the spam filter. This is why I think putting pressure on companies to recruit more and more adult women is fundamentally flawed. There just aren't enough adult cis women who are interested, no matter how much any company tries to recruit. I'm also particularly appalled by attempts to demonize Linus Torvalds for not having enough women as core kernel developers: it's not his fault that people perceived as female (i.e. cis girls and pre-transition FtMs) are told as early as preschool that they shouldn't be interested in technology. Fix that part of society instead of demonizing project leaders.
- kps 12y ago
  > There's an excellent SMBC comic on this, by the way, but I'm new > and I don't know if posting a link will get this post tossed This one? http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1883 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1883 (Upvotes to the parent, if so.)
  - amyjess 12y ago
smorrow 12y ago
> coding will be mandatory ...people want this? what's good about it?
Kalium 12y ago
> In my opinion, this is the heart of the diversity problem. We spend a lot of time trying to improve the representation of adult women in tech. Wouldn't that be a whole lot easier if girls felt more comfortable growing up to become women in tech? I think you may be making a mistake in assuming that people are interested in nothing more or less than addressing the problem. From where I'm sitting, people are interesting in addressing the problem and having a scapegoat. It's always easier to blame a small group of people than it is to accept that you are part of the problem.
leaveyou 12y ago
honest question: why is the lack of diversity in tech a problem from your point of view ? I don't know any other field where people perceive these kind of problems. (I never heard anyone wanting more women in construction or plumbing nor more men in nursing for exemple)
- pj_mukh 12y ago
  Because $$$. A financial handicap is the worst kind of social handicap.
  - leaveyou 12y ago
    oh, it makes sense now. In my area (EU) programming and IT in general is considered difficult, unhealthy, extremely boring and not necessarily well paid job (very little above the national average salary). On several occasions I met parents explicitly discouraging their kids from a career in programming.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    If money were the only or even primary issue, the underrepresentation of women in the trades would get a lot more coverage. The trades are a key source of well-paying jobs, and women are dramatically underrepresented there.
    - Crito 12y ago
      Perhaps the difference is that tech is perceived by the general public as well paying, but the trades are perceived by the general public as crappy jobs for people who don't get accepted by college. Mike Rowe (who has agendas of his own I am sure), has commented on this discrimination/vilification of the trades many times in the past. Parents and teachers will frequently discourage teens from pursuing careers in the trades because they believe the only way to be successful is to go to college. If the trades are incorrectly perceived as low-paying, that could help explain why calls for more women in the trades seem to be underrepresented.
      - 12y ago
davidgerard 12y ago
In practice, they're throwing seven- and eight-year-olds at Scratch http://scratch.mit.edu http://scratch.mit.edu and the kids are LOVING IT. My daughter and her friends, who are pink-dress-wearing MLP-loving girly girls are really getting into it. I cannot tell you how highly I approve of this.

njohnson41 12y ago

Hopefully mandatory computer science education doesn't fall into the same trap as mathematics, where the "introductory" version taught in grade school becomes so simplified and rote that it loses all of the qualities that make it creative and interesting. There is definitely a systemic problem of kids thinking they are "no good at math", despite an early introduction, and I'm not sure why CS would be so different. Of course, that's still a lot better than not having mandatory math classes at all.

derefr 12y ago
Indeed; what I'd really hope for, in the end, would be just beginning to teach discrete math (logic, set theory, graph theory, etc.) to kids starting when they're 11 or so. It's a lot easier, and a lot more fun, and tends to be a lot more appreciated by the kids than the random bits of pre-calculus (literally "things that are useless unless you later take calculus") we teach them in "Math" class! But, of course, everyone always derides the idea because "we tried this" with New Math in the 70s. No, we didn't. We tried to teach some parts of discrete math (which are formal abstractions) to 5- or 6-year-olds, who weren't yet at the formal operational stage of cognitive development. You can't teach a 6-year-old about set theory any more than you can teach a 6-week-old about object permanence. You have to start when they're older. But "older" doesn't mean "an optional thing to be taught at university!" It's a formative skill, and if you don't pick it up right when you're first able to pick it up, trying to force it into your mind later is somewhat like trying to learn a new spoken language in adulthood when you've been monolingual for your entire life until then.

amyjess 12y ago

Been lurking for a while, figured this'd be a good place to make my first post. I'm a trans woman (MtF). This isn't the first time (and it won't be the last) I've observed something about gender stereotypes just from having lived on both sides. One stereotype that's widely known in the trans community is that a disproportionately large percentage of trans women work in tech (or are tech hobbyists). The "MtF CS nerd" is probably the biggest trans stereotype I can think of. This stereotype doesn't extend to trans men (FtMs). In fact, it's assumed that the ratio of MtFs to FtMs in tech is about the same as the ratio of cis men to cis women in tech. In the main online trans community I run in, where this stereotype is endlessly touted as being true (often tongue-in-cheek), most of us start our transitions somewhere between 18-45 and by and large is biased towards people who started in our twenties (I started at 28, myself, and I'm 30 now). People who started before or after that are really rare in that particular community (there are other communities that swing younger or older, by the way -- I'm just talking about the group I run with). The only real conclusion is that whatever biased us towards or against careers in tech based on our perceived genders must have occurred in childhood, definitely before college and probably before high school as well. It probably happened in toddlerhood, really. There's an excellent SMBC comic on this, by the way, but I'm new and I don't know if posting a link will get this post tossed into the spam filter. This is why I think putting pressure on companies to recruit more and more adult women is fundamentally flawed. There just aren't enough adult cis women who are interested, no matter how much any company tries to recruit. I'm also particularly appalled by attempts to demonize Linus Torvalds for not having enough women as core kernel developers: it's not his fault that people perceived as female (i.e. cis girls and pre-transition FtMs) are told as early as preschool that they shouldn't be interested in technology. Fix that part of society instead of demonizing project leaders.

kps 12y ago
> There's an excellent SMBC comic on this, by the way, but I'm new > and I don't know if posting a link will get this post tossed This one? http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1883 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1883 (Upvotes to the parent, if so.)
- amyjess 12y ago

smorrow 12y ago

> coding will be mandatory ...people want this? what's good about it?

Kalium 12y ago

> In my opinion, this is the heart of the diversity problem. We spend a lot of time trying to improve the representation of adult women in tech. Wouldn't that be a whole lot easier if girls felt more comfortable growing up to become women in tech? I think you may be making a mistake in assuming that people are interested in nothing more or less than addressing the problem. From where I'm sitting, people are interesting in addressing the problem and having a scapegoat. It's always easier to blame a small group of people than it is to accept that you are part of the problem.

leaveyou 12y ago

honest question: why is the lack of diversity in tech a problem from your point of view ? I don't know any other field where people perceive these kind of problems. (I never heard anyone wanting more women in construction or plumbing nor more men in nursing for exemple)

pj_mukh 12y ago
Because $$$. A financial handicap is the worst kind of social handicap.
- leaveyou 12y ago
  oh, it makes sense now. In my area (EU) programming and IT in general is considered difficult, unhealthy, extremely boring and not necessarily well paid job (very little above the national average salary). On several occasions I met parents explicitly discouraging their kids from a career in programming.
- rayiner 12y ago
  If money were the only or even primary issue, the underrepresentation of women in the trades would get a lot more coverage. The trades are a key source of well-paying jobs, and women are dramatically underrepresented there.
  - Crito 12y ago
    Perhaps the difference is that tech is perceived by the general public as well paying, but the trades are perceived by the general public as crappy jobs for people who don't get accepted by college. Mike Rowe (who has agendas of his own I am sure), has commented on this discrimination/vilification of the trades many times in the past. Parents and teachers will frequently discourage teens from pursuing careers in the trades because they believe the only way to be successful is to go to college. If the trades are incorrectly perceived as low-paying, that could help explain why calls for more women in the trades seem to be underrepresented.
    - 12y ago

davidgerard 12y ago

In practice, they're throwing seven- and eight-year-olds at Scratch http://scratch.mit.edu http://scratch.mit.edu and the kids are LOVING IT. My daughter and her friends, who are pink-dress-wearing MLP-loving girly girls are really getting into it. I cannot tell you how highly I approve of this.