4 ms·

>That 'gps-lockdown' is to make sure the machine doesn't get moved around just for the heck of it taking it out of spec and then having the manufacturer turn up

>That 'gps-lockdown' is to make sure the machine doesn't get moved around just for the heck of it taking it out of spec and then having the manufacturer turn up after a bunch of complaining. Nonsense. If they move it, then that spoils the calibration, sure, but rendering it inoperable is stupid. Also why would the mfr complain about having to recalibrate the machine, they get paid for that if you're the one that ruined it. You also seem to assume that machinists are mere button pushers following instructions. A good experienced machinist knows more about his/her machine's capabilities/precision than anyone ITT. Hell, for the machine we're talking about, the machinist may well be an ME and if not, then probably one won't be far from it. >Ostensibly another reason is that some guy in Iran could set up a shop in the US as a front, buy a bunch of these machines and then ship them to evade an embargo so that's why they are locked to location. Also nonsense. Let's not pretend that Iranians (as in Iranian physicists) are too stupid to defeat such a scheme. >The calibration gear costs a multiple of what the machine itself costs, usually works on the laser-interferometry principle No way. This is all just hand-waviness and big-words. Laser interferometry systems have gotten much cheaper, more portable; and purpose built instruments are available for all manner of trades. Here, a maintenance mechanic job posting that requires knowledge of "laser interferometer system" http://jobview.monster.com/Maintenance-Mechanic-offre-emploi-Windsor-ON-CA-145865785.aspx http://jobview.monster.com/Maintenance-Mechanic-offre-emploi... Now either that is a very special maintenance mechanic, or laser-interferometry is more common than you thought.

jacquesm 12y ago
> but rendering it inoperable is stupid. No, it's prudent. Having to toss a few hundred K worth of product is stupid. > Also why would the mfr complain about having to recalibrate the machine, they get paid for that if you're the one that ruined it. Because once there is a pile of money on the line people tend to forget that they moved the machine. > You also seem to assume that machinists are mere button pushers following instructions. No, but calibrating a machine after installation is a job that requires different tools and skills than operating a machine. > A good experienced machinist knows more about his/her machine's capabilities/precision than anyone ITT. More than the designers in some cases. But that's the exception, not the rule. Typical machine operators are definitely not in the same class as the technicians that install the machinery and calibrate it. Though over the years some of them can become experts on their machine over and beyond what anybody else knows about it, and they can gain the ability to coax workpieces from them with accuracy beyond what the machines are spec'd to. > Hell, for the machine we're talking about, the machinist may well be an ME and if not, then probably one won't be far from it. That still doesn't mean he/she has the expert view on what goes on inside it. In my experience machinists tend to be experts on materials, tooling, cooling, clamping, feeds & speeds, QA, packaging and sometimes alloys. They tend to be less knowledgeable about electronics, motorized drives, software, environmental factors. >>Ostensibly another reason is that some guy in Iran could set up a shop in the US as a front, buy a bunch of these machines and then ship them to evade an embargo so that's why they are locked to location. > Also nonsense. Let's not pretend that Iranians (as in Iranian physicists) are too stupid to defeat such a scheme. Let me cite a representative of a manufacturer: " Sorry you've not had a stellar service experience. PM me with your info, names, etc. and I'll make sure you get better support. Regarding the device, Weapons of Mass Destruction. Worst case for a negligent violation would be Dr. Mori himself spending time in the slammer. That along is enough motivation for DMG MORI to follow the regulation very carefully. Other reasons include all of those stated above! btw, no need to waste time on bypassing it. It is pretty solid. We have to make it so Iran, N. Korea, etc's best can't bypass it. " http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/dmg-mori-gildemeister-maho-cnc/mori-ellison-gyroscope-unlocking-273841/ http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/dmg-mori-gildemeister-m... > No way. This is all just hand-waviness and big-words. Laser interferometry systems have gotten much cheaper, more portable; and purpose built instruments are available for all manner of trades. Yes, amazingly miniaturization and such work even for expensive gear. That doesn't mean it's suddenly much less expensive though it is definitely a bit cheaper than in the past when the technology was brand new. Just the setup is a couple of days (to reach thermal equilibrium), a basic system is a few tens of thousands of dollars, a system capable of simultaneous alignment of a 5 axis machining center to within a fraction of a thou will be a tad more than that. Operators of that gear aren't free either. > Now either that is a very special maintenance mechanic, or laser-interferometry is more common than you thought. Or maybe there are multiple classes of such instruments for various applications and ranges of precision? Note how that job posting is for a maintenance mechanic and not for a machinist?
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  >No, it's prudent. Trigger the "tilt sensor" require a supervisory override. Call it uncalibrated operation. Now it's on the machine owner. Not your problem anymore. >Because once there is a pile of money on the line people tend to forget that they moved the machine. Fine, detect movement if you don't trust the owners (you shouldn't), stick it to the floor with a serial numbered bolt, whatever. Disabling the machine is a step too far. >They tend to be less knowledgeable about electronics Which makes them easy marks doesn't it? >btw, no need to waste time on bypassing it. It is pretty solid. We have to make it so Iran, N. Korea, etc's best can't bypass it. " /u/MoriGuy is a fool. Iran in particular has some very good schools, and no doubt could defeat this scheme in any number of ways. This is only hurting non-Iranian customers. >miniaturization and such work even for expensive gear. That doesn't mean it's suddenly much less expensive though Actually, it does. You may not be able to by them at Home Depot yet, but you can find them in tradesmen's tool kits, and in all manner of other uses that wouldn't be possible without relatively inexpensive equipment. >Note how that job posting is for a maintenance mechanic and not for a machinist? Pick ones that you like then. It was third in the list of results for me. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Laser+interferometry+millwright&t=lm https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Laser+interferometry+millwright&t=...
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    > /u/MoriGuy is a fool. Iran in particular has some very good schools, and no doubt could defeat this scheme in any number of ways. This is only hurting non-Iranian customers. Tell that to US politicians. If the US demands that its trading partners make such machinery tamper proof you really can't go and blame the manufacturers for actually complying with those regulations and doing a reasonably good job of it. Whether or not it has the intended effect is not actually their problem. Agreed that disabling the machine is in some cases a step too far but having witnessed just how ugly these disputes tend to get in some cases it is actually a benefit because it puts a limit on the damage done. You're arguing for a 'warranty void' kind of sticker. But that would not take care of the worries of the lease companies (who are probably the biggest beneficiaries of this kind of lock-out mechanism).

jacquesm 12y ago

> but rendering it inoperable is stupid. No, it's prudent. Having to toss a few hundred K worth of product is stupid. > Also why would the mfr complain about having to recalibrate the machine, they get paid for that if you're the one that ruined it. Because once there is a pile of money on the line people tend to forget that they moved the machine. > You also seem to assume that machinists are mere button pushers following instructions. No, but calibrating a machine after installation is a job that requires different tools and skills than operating a machine. > A good experienced machinist knows more about his/her machine's capabilities/precision than anyone ITT. More than the designers in some cases. But that's the exception, not the rule. Typical machine operators are definitely not in the same class as the technicians that install the machinery and calibrate it. Though over the years some of them can become experts on their machine over and beyond what anybody else knows about it, and they can gain the ability to coax workpieces from them with accuracy beyond what the machines are spec'd to. > Hell, for the machine we're talking about, the machinist may well be an ME and if not, then probably one won't be far from it. That still doesn't mean he/she has the expert view on what goes on inside it. In my experience machinists tend to be experts on materials, tooling, cooling, clamping, feeds & speeds, QA, packaging and sometimes alloys. They tend to be less knowledgeable about electronics, motorized drives, software, environmental factors. >>Ostensibly another reason is that some guy in Iran could set up a shop in the US as a front, buy a bunch of these machines and then ship them to evade an embargo so that's why they are locked to location. > Also nonsense. Let's not pretend that Iranians (as in Iranian physicists) are too stupid to defeat such a scheme. Let me cite a representative of a manufacturer: " Sorry you've not had a stellar service experience. PM me with your info, names, etc. and I'll make sure you get better support. Regarding the device, Weapons of Mass Destruction. Worst case for a negligent violation would be Dr. Mori himself spending time in the slammer. That along is enough motivation for DMG MORI to follow the regulation very carefully. Other reasons include all of those stated above! btw, no need to waste time on bypassing it. It is pretty solid. We have to make it so Iran, N. Korea, etc's best can't bypass it. " http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/dmg-mori-gildemeister-maho-cnc/mori-ellison-gyroscope-unlocking-273841/ http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/dmg-mori-gildemeister-m... > No way. This is all just hand-waviness and big-words. Laser interferometry systems have gotten much cheaper, more portable; and purpose built instruments are available for all manner of trades. Yes, amazingly miniaturization and such work even for expensive gear. That doesn't mean it's suddenly much less expensive though it is definitely a bit cheaper than in the past when the technology was brand new. Just the setup is a couple of days (to reach thermal equilibrium), a basic system is a few tens of thousands of dollars, a system capable of simultaneous alignment of a 5 axis machining center to within a fraction of a thou will be a tad more than that. Operators of that gear aren't free either. > Now either that is a very special maintenance mechanic, or laser-interferometry is more common than you thought. Or maybe there are multiple classes of such instruments for various applications and ranges of precision? Note how that job posting is for a maintenance mechanic and not for a machinist?

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
>No, it's prudent. Trigger the "tilt sensor" require a supervisory override. Call it uncalibrated operation. Now it's on the machine owner. Not your problem anymore. >Because once there is a pile of money on the line people tend to forget that they moved the machine. Fine, detect movement if you don't trust the owners (you shouldn't), stick it to the floor with a serial numbered bolt, whatever. Disabling the machine is a step too far. >They tend to be less knowledgeable about electronics Which makes them easy marks doesn't it? >btw, no need to waste time on bypassing it. It is pretty solid. We have to make it so Iran, N. Korea, etc's best can't bypass it. " /u/MoriGuy is a fool. Iran in particular has some very good schools, and no doubt could defeat this scheme in any number of ways. This is only hurting non-Iranian customers. >miniaturization and such work even for expensive gear. That doesn't mean it's suddenly much less expensive though Actually, it does. You may not be able to by them at Home Depot yet, but you can find them in tradesmen's tool kits, and in all manner of other uses that wouldn't be possible without relatively inexpensive equipment. >Note how that job posting is for a maintenance mechanic and not for a machinist? Pick ones that you like then. It was third in the list of results for me. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Laser+interferometry+millwright&t=lm https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Laser+interferometry+millwright&t=...
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > /u/MoriGuy is a fool. Iran in particular has some very good schools, and no doubt could defeat this scheme in any number of ways. This is only hurting non-Iranian customers. Tell that to US politicians. If the US demands that its trading partners make such machinery tamper proof you really can't go and blame the manufacturers for actually complying with those regulations and doing a reasonably good job of it. Whether or not it has the intended effect is not actually their problem. Agreed that disabling the machine is in some cases a step too far but having witnessed just how ugly these disputes tend to get in some cases it is actually a benefit because it puts a limit on the damage done. You're arguing for a 'warranty void' kind of sticker. But that would not take care of the worries of the lease companies (who are probably the biggest beneficiaries of this kind of lock-out mechanism).