8 ms·

Want Elon Musk to Hire You at Tesla? Work for Apple

74 points by Audiophilip 12y ago

harkyns_castle 12y ago
The IT workers should form a union. I'm not a fan of unions (they seem to devolve towards corruption here in Australia), but I'd prefer that over arseholes like Jobs et al making wage "agreements". How scummy is that, they're raking in billions, and they decide to be tight on the people that make them their cash? Scumbags.
- abandonliberty 12y ago
  Due to the rampant hostility towards unions, a professional association like what doctors and lawyers have, while serving the same purpose, would be an easier sell. Implementation is hell though.
  - mc32 12y ago
    How would union bureaucracy affect changes in the environments. From changes in hardware, software and organizational? Unions seem to typically act very protectively and hence allow change very slowly. I think while this would make for a more comfortable labor market for engineers in terms of labor, in terms of dynamism I suspect it would slow things down. After all automation (efficiency) is at odds with membership numbers.
- criley2 12y ago
  Considering most labor protections in the US are written to create an "exempt" employee who is largely unprotected in labor matters, and that exemption is almost entirely for anyone working in the software industry... yeah, unionization and law change would be nice. If software companies were forced to pay overtime instead of expecting it for no cost, I think work/life balance would look a lot different.
  - abandonliberty 12y ago
    At the very least California has a minimum wage requirement to be OT exempt. British Columbia imported the laws, but dropped the minimum. I know people who make less than they would at a call center. Of course they're living at home, socially stunted, and don't understand the value they provide.
- blfr 12y ago
  Why would people who are being offered $250k signing bonuses and don't find it enticing enough (according to the OP) need a union?
  - harkyns_castle 12y ago
    Well, sign me up for that hehe. I honestly don't know anyone that gets that kind of cash. Its probably a bit of a supply/demand thing, but that seems like a pretty obscene salary. This is what I don't understand - if you have in excess of 1-5m dollars, why do you want more? Can't we put a cap on this kind of greed?
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  This is a colossally bad idea. As a Chicagoan I can tell you unions only cause more problems. They make damn sure that patronage and favor systems rule, not meritocracy. That you can't fire terrible people and that all promotions are done via just seniority. That's on top of the eventual corruption, dues, and worse outcomes and being run circles around by non-union shops. > but I'd prefer that over arseholes like Jobs et al making wage "agreements". Under existing law this is collusion and illegal. The real question is why the, ironically, union-friendly Obama administration didn't crack down on this with an iron fist? I think Obama's DOJ needs to be held accountable here. Its clear they let Jobs become an untouchable man and this attitude hurt a lot of people's lives, moreso than anything Gates did and he was nearly destroyed by Clinton.
  - rl3 12y ago
    Unions have their place, though they seem more suitable for situations where there isn't any potential for employees to accelerate their careers on the basis of merit. The transportation sector is an especially good example of this. A cab driver, airline pilot, and train engineer are all expected to operate their respective vehicles safely and efficiently. The opportunity for rapid career advancement that creatives in the tech industry enjoy is simply not present. Therefore, the meritocracy-breaking overhead often associated with unions isn't nearly as much of a concern as it would be in an industry that's heavily dependent on the meritocratic dynamic. If unions somehow become a thing in Tech, I suspect it will have been due to their implementation being so radically different so as to resemble the traditional model in name only, if that.
  - harkyns_castle 12y ago
    Yeah sound points. I guess I'd just say it feels like we're relying on the foxes to regulate the henhouse, when its really not in their best interests.
mariusz79 12y ago
"Automakers from around the world are rushing to set up offices in the Bay Area to tap the engineering talent. " An honest question - is this really because of the talent, or simply because people there tend to work more? When you have so many people competing for engineering jobs I expect that people, especially the ones with no kids, will work on average a lot more. Is that the case or am I wrong?
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  I was under the impressions job supply was far higher than demand in the bay area (for engineers). Aren't people always complaining they can't get the talent? So I would guess that the hours you're willing to do above the standard don't matter as, if you're talented, you're in demand.
  - joshstrange 12y ago
    As much as I'd like to believe they are being genuine (as a developer who benefits from being in high demand) I've heard that this statement can really be re-written as "We can't get enough talent at the price we want to pay" thus the push to try to make it easier to bring engineers into the USA (One's they conveniently leave out will accept less for the same job). I'm not saying this is all fact but just that I'm not sure how much I believe that they really are scrambling for talent.
    - GolfyMcG 12y ago
      I would agree with this with one caveat. The way I read your comment was, "Large software firms want to hire you for as little as possible" but I think it's more "Large software firms want to hire the best talent for as little as possible." I tend to believe that the throughput of the top 5-10% can be exponentially more than the next 5-10%. The objective for a lot of these firms is to get the top couple percent and get 4x as much value of out someone but paying 2x as much. As it relates to the parent comment, I think there is an incredibly high demand for the top 5-10% of tech talent and exponentially less demand for the subsequent talent. It's very similar in NYC for finance talent. I know people who work in SF and NYC both who work insane hours but they get paid SO MUCH MORE for it. So, no one is scrambling for good engineers or good bankers or good consultants but they are scrambling for that tiny sliver of the market that they believe will generate exponential returns and turn into leaders of the company.
dcole2929 12y ago
Seriously are $250,000 signing bonuses and 60% pay increases common in the valley. What level employee is this for. Clearly I'm doing something wrong or need to move to SV asap because I've never heard of that kind of pay here on the east coast outside of maybe NYC
- smeyer 12y ago
  I know people on the east coast with $100k signing bonuses straight out of college. There are definitely coastal differences, but I don't think it's impossible to find some examples on the east coast as well.
  - aswanson 12y ago
    From what schools, from what companies?
    - smeyer 12y ago
      I went to Harvard, so most of the examples I know are from Harvard at the common hot employers. I know of some examples from other schools, though. It's also often the case that not all hires get a six figure signing bonus at a particular company from a particular school, but just some of the people at the top of the pay spectrum.
      - dcole2929 12y ago
        But is this in tech? I know several people who have gotten these type of offers but they have almost all be exclusively in the financial sector. And even more so in trading type positions as quants or analysts.
        smeyer 12y ago
        Yes, in tech. Your typical Googamafacesoft type companies. There are people with similar offers in finance, but they're not to whom I was referring in the earlier comment.
32faction 12y ago
Any advice as to getting hired with SpaceX?
- jxm262 12y ago
  I had these posts bookmarked because I was curious myself. You may have already googled these, but thought I'd share. I'm a web developer myself but would love to work here someday :) http://www.quora.com/Can-I-get-a-job-at-SpaceX-after-graduating-from-a-low-ranked-engineering-program http://www.quora.com/Can-I-get-a-job-at-SpaceX-after-graduat... http://www.quora.com/How-did-you-get-an-internship-at-SpaceX-1 http://www.quora.com/How-did-you-get-an-internship-at-SpaceX...
  - slackpad 12y ago
    SpaceX has a lot of open positions for web developers. It's kind of a misconception that it's all embedded work here or that you need an aerospace background. The web work is a little different because it's usually internal-facing but there are a lot of interesting problems. Definitely check it out.
    - jxm262 12y ago
      Thanks for the response. From my perspective, SpaceX is probably the coolest company on the planet right now :) I looked for web dev jobs a while back (that's when I bookmarked those quora posts). Unfortunately, I'm staying in my current location for about another year so won't be able to move. Any tips on what sort of people they're looking for? Particularly what technical areas they look for in a web position? The discussions I've seen online are all related to the product engineering side of things.
      - slackpad 12y ago
        On the front end it's pretty cool since you are targeting internal tools you can assume modern browsers and use the latest frameworks and tech with zero legacy support to worry about. We look for people who have full stack experience and can be flexible and help out on any area of a large web application (including a some ops and continuous integration). Communication skills are super important - usually these projects are on small teams that need to work well together and support people within the company who use the tools. We also try to make sure people are good with details and are thorough in their ability to properly build and test their stuff - these tools are critical for the success of the mission so they are every bit as important as the code on board the vehicles.
wonderyak 12y ago
I'd be happy enough just working at Apple.
- eyeareque 12y ago
  That "happy enough" feeling would eventually wear off. Like anywhere else, it is just a job.
  - smackfu 12y ago
    Yeah, there's a lot of less fun jobs in any company.
  - wonderyak 12y ago
    Oh I'm sure it would, but it would be far better than my current situation.
    - eyeareque 12y ago
      Hopefully you can get out there and find something better then. Plus, Apple will work you 50+ hrs a week. You can make the same money or more somewhere else, working less hours.
      - wonderyak 12y ago
        I'm happily working towards that now.

74 points by Audiophilip 12y ago

The IT workers should form a union. I'm not a fan of unions (they seem to devolve towards corruption here in Australia), but I'd prefer that over arseholes like Jobs et al making wage "agreements". How scummy is that, they're raking in billions, and they decide to be tight on the people that make them their cash? Scumbags.

abandonliberty 12y ago
Due to the rampant hostility towards unions, a professional association like what doctors and lawyers have, while serving the same purpose, would be an easier sell. Implementation is hell though.
- mc32 12y ago
  How would union bureaucracy affect changes in the environments. From changes in hardware, software and organizational? Unions seem to typically act very protectively and hence allow change very slowly. I think while this would make for a more comfortable labor market for engineers in terms of labor, in terms of dynamism I suspect it would slow things down. After all automation (efficiency) is at odds with membership numbers.
criley2 12y ago
Considering most labor protections in the US are written to create an "exempt" employee who is largely unprotected in labor matters, and that exemption is almost entirely for anyone working in the software industry... yeah, unionization and law change would be nice. If software companies were forced to pay overtime instead of expecting it for no cost, I think work/life balance would look a lot different.
- abandonliberty 12y ago
  At the very least California has a minimum wage requirement to be OT exempt. British Columbia imported the laws, but dropped the minimum. I know people who make less than they would at a call center. Of course they're living at home, socially stunted, and don't understand the value they provide.
blfr 12y ago
Why would people who are being offered $250k signing bonuses and don't find it enticing enough (according to the OP) need a union?
- harkyns_castle 12y ago
  Well, sign me up for that hehe. I honestly don't know anyone that gets that kind of cash. Its probably a bit of a supply/demand thing, but that seems like a pretty obscene salary. This is what I don't understand - if you have in excess of 1-5m dollars, why do you want more? Can't we put a cap on this kind of greed?
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
This is a colossally bad idea. As a Chicagoan I can tell you unions only cause more problems. They make damn sure that patronage and favor systems rule, not meritocracy. That you can't fire terrible people and that all promotions are done via just seniority. That's on top of the eventual corruption, dues, and worse outcomes and being run circles around by non-union shops. > but I'd prefer that over arseholes like Jobs et al making wage "agreements". Under existing law this is collusion and illegal. The real question is why the, ironically, union-friendly Obama administration didn't crack down on this with an iron fist? I think Obama's DOJ needs to be held accountable here. Its clear they let Jobs become an untouchable man and this attitude hurt a lot of people's lives, moreso than anything Gates did and he was nearly destroyed by Clinton.
- rl3 12y ago
  Unions have their place, though they seem more suitable for situations where there isn't any potential for employees to accelerate their careers on the basis of merit. The transportation sector is an especially good example of this. A cab driver, airline pilot, and train engineer are all expected to operate their respective vehicles safely and efficiently. The opportunity for rapid career advancement that creatives in the tech industry enjoy is simply not present. Therefore, the meritocracy-breaking overhead often associated with unions isn't nearly as much of a concern as it would be in an industry that's heavily dependent on the meritocratic dynamic. If unions somehow become a thing in Tech, I suspect it will have been due to their implementation being so radically different so as to resemble the traditional model in name only, if that.
- harkyns_castle 12y ago
  Yeah sound points. I guess I'd just say it feels like we're relying on the foxes to regulate the henhouse, when its really not in their best interests.

mariusz79 12y ago

"Automakers from around the world are rushing to set up offices in the Bay Area to tap the engineering talent. " An honest question - is this really because of the talent, or simply because people there tend to work more? When you have so many people competing for engineering jobs I expect that people, especially the ones with no kids, will work on average a lot more. Is that the case or am I wrong?

k-mcgrady 12y ago
I was under the impressions job supply was far higher than demand in the bay area (for engineers). Aren't people always complaining they can't get the talent? So I would guess that the hours you're willing to do above the standard don't matter as, if you're talented, you're in demand.
- joshstrange 12y ago
  As much as I'd like to believe they are being genuine (as a developer who benefits from being in high demand) I've heard that this statement can really be re-written as "We can't get enough talent at the price we want to pay" thus the push to try to make it easier to bring engineers into the USA (One's they conveniently leave out will accept less for the same job). I'm not saying this is all fact but just that I'm not sure how much I believe that they really are scrambling for talent.
  - GolfyMcG 12y ago
    I would agree with this with one caveat. The way I read your comment was, "Large software firms want to hire you for as little as possible" but I think it's more "Large software firms want to hire the best talent for as little as possible." I tend to believe that the throughput of the top 5-10% can be exponentially more than the next 5-10%. The objective for a lot of these firms is to get the top couple percent and get 4x as much value of out someone but paying 2x as much. As it relates to the parent comment, I think there is an incredibly high demand for the top 5-10% of tech talent and exponentially less demand for the subsequent talent. It's very similar in NYC for finance talent. I know people who work in SF and NYC both who work insane hours but they get paid SO MUCH MORE for it. So, no one is scrambling for good engineers or good bankers or good consultants but they are scrambling for that tiny sliver of the market that they believe will generate exponential returns and turn into leaders of the company.

dcole2929 12y ago

Seriously are $250,000 signing bonuses and 60% pay increases common in the valley. What level employee is this for. Clearly I'm doing something wrong or need to move to SV asap because I've never heard of that kind of pay here on the east coast outside of maybe NYC

smeyer 12y ago
I know people on the east coast with $100k signing bonuses straight out of college. There are definitely coastal differences, but I don't think it's impossible to find some examples on the east coast as well.
- aswanson 12y ago
  From what schools, from what companies?
  - smeyer 12y ago
    I went to Harvard, so most of the examples I know are from Harvard at the common hot employers. I know of some examples from other schools, though. It's also often the case that not all hires get a six figure signing bonus at a particular company from a particular school, but just some of the people at the top of the pay spectrum.
    - dcole2929 12y ago
      But is this in tech? I know several people who have gotten these type of offers but they have almost all be exclusively in the financial sector. And even more so in trading type positions as quants or analysts.
      - smeyer 12y ago
        Yes, in tech. Your typical Googamafacesoft type companies. There are people with similar offers in finance, but they're not to whom I was referring in the earlier comment.

32faction 12y ago

Any advice as to getting hired with SpaceX?

jxm262 12y ago
I had these posts bookmarked because I was curious myself. You may have already googled these, but thought I'd share. I'm a web developer myself but would love to work here someday :) http://www.quora.com/Can-I-get-a-job-at-SpaceX-after-graduating-from-a-low-ranked-engineering-program http://www.quora.com/Can-I-get-a-job-at-SpaceX-after-graduat... http://www.quora.com/How-did-you-get-an-internship-at-SpaceX-1 http://www.quora.com/How-did-you-get-an-internship-at-SpaceX...
- slackpad 12y ago
  SpaceX has a lot of open positions for web developers. It's kind of a misconception that it's all embedded work here or that you need an aerospace background. The web work is a little different because it's usually internal-facing but there are a lot of interesting problems. Definitely check it out.
  - jxm262 12y ago
    Thanks for the response. From my perspective, SpaceX is probably the coolest company on the planet right now :) I looked for web dev jobs a while back (that's when I bookmarked those quora posts). Unfortunately, I'm staying in my current location for about another year so won't be able to move. Any tips on what sort of people they're looking for? Particularly what technical areas they look for in a web position? The discussions I've seen online are all related to the product engineering side of things.
    - slackpad 12y ago
      On the front end it's pretty cool since you are targeting internal tools you can assume modern browsers and use the latest frameworks and tech with zero legacy support to worry about. We look for people who have full stack experience and can be flexible and help out on any area of a large web application (including a some ops and continuous integration). Communication skills are super important - usually these projects are on small teams that need to work well together and support people within the company who use the tools. We also try to make sure people are good with details and are thorough in their ability to properly build and test their stuff - these tools are critical for the success of the mission so they are every bit as important as the code on board the vehicles.

wonderyak 12y ago

I'd be happy enough just working at Apple.

eyeareque 12y ago
That "happy enough" feeling would eventually wear off. Like anywhere else, it is just a job.
- smackfu 12y ago
  Yeah, there's a lot of less fun jobs in any company.
- wonderyak 12y ago
  Oh I'm sure it would, but it would be far better than my current situation.
  - eyeareque 12y ago
    Hopefully you can get out there and find something better then. Plus, Apple will work you 50+ hrs a week. You can make the same money or more somewhere else, working less hours.
    - wonderyak 12y ago
      I'm happily working towards that now.