4 ms·

Agree on all points. For what is worth, the last page of the brochure says black on white in a visible font that device relocation is subject to Japan's export

Agree on all points. For what is worth, the last page of the brochure says black on white in a visible font that device relocation is subject to Japan's export restrictions. They don't care if your machine stops and they are under no obligation to make it work again. Now, if it is _also_ about precision, then the contract will probably have some fine print about it too...

jacquesm 12y ago
These machines are usually sold and installed through 'certified dealerships', in other words, people making money on having spent the time to learn how to properly sell and service this stuff prior to and after delivery. That's a fair investment and I wouldn't put it past them (the dealers) to pull tricks, for instance to charge for supplying an unlock code (which they really should not do, you can always switch to a different dealer if they do though). The manufacturer however has very little say in what happens to the machines after they leave the factory, though to comply with ITAR I believe the codes are only produced at the source so I guess they theoretically could strongarm someone into paying a fee for equipment they already own. But any manufacturer that would do this would generate a lot of headwind and word gets around very quickly in the metalworking world. Such a manufacturer would not be selling much longer. A colleague of mine had a very large and precise (those two a contradictory, so you can guess at the kind of expense involved) machining center installed and it took two months before the workpieces were acceptable. That machine too had a gyro and it was definitely there with 'dual purpose', on the one hand the ITAR compliance made it mandatory but I'm pretty sure that both parties were happy the gyro was there in one case to prove that it had not been moved and in the other to make sure that it wasn't moved. There's a lot of money riding on machinery like this, imagine QA at the recipient of a load of parts deciding that they're worthless scrap and then you're arguing with the manufacturer whether or not the machine is at fault or you are at fault because you have shifted the machine. Better if everybody is on the same page in situations like that.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  > it took two months before the workpieces were acceptable. For a new manual Bridgeport knee mill, it may be more than two months before the machinist who runs it is happy with it. >There's a lot of money riding on machinery like this, imagine QA at the recipient of a load of parts deciding that they're worthless scrap How is that even possible for a competent/honest machine shop? As if the shop doesn't inspect its output. Is there some sort of CNC-vending-machine business model that I haven't heard of where clients email their CAD files to the machine and next week a freight truck arrives with the stuff?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    > How is that even possible for a competent/honest machine shop? Because measuring things is hard. > As if the shop doesn't inspect its output. Of course they do. And even then it can still happen that what passes inspection at the shop (especially in early runs) does not pass muster with the recipient. Which is why you don't want to be moving your equipment around if you can help it. Depending on the precision required it really doesn't take much to go from 'pass' to 'scrap' and it is not rare at all for the incoming inspection to reject parts that were accepted at the production facility. This is logical because there is money on the line. > Is there some sort of CNC-vending-machine business model that I haven't heard of where clients email their CAD files to the machine and next week a freight truck arrives with the stuff? You seen to have missed the internet revolution in machining, but yes that's exactly the model these days. Only I'd replace 'machine' with 'machine shop' or 'production facility'.
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      >Because measuring things is hard. Harder than making things? No, absolutely not. >And even then it can still happen that what passes inspection at the shop (especially in early runs) does not pass muster with the recipient. That's a communication problem. Happens often enough, but DRM does nothing to fix it. >You seen to have missed the internet revolution in machining, but yes that's exactly the model these days. I know that may be what people want but that's still a fantasy for precision machining. I don't think anyone is near the point that you can fire the machinists and simply hire someone to sweep up the tailings, refill the oil tanks, and slap shipping labels on things, (and then I suppose cash the checks from your mountain chalet).

jacquesm 12y ago

These machines are usually sold and installed through 'certified dealerships', in other words, people making money on having spent the time to learn how to properly sell and service this stuff prior to and after delivery. That's a fair investment and I wouldn't put it past them (the dealers) to pull tricks, for instance to charge for supplying an unlock code (which they really should not do, you can always switch to a different dealer if they do though). The manufacturer however has very little say in what happens to the machines after they leave the factory, though to comply with ITAR I believe the codes are only produced at the source so I guess they theoretically could strongarm someone into paying a fee for equipment they already own. But any manufacturer that would do this would generate a lot of headwind and word gets around very quickly in the metalworking world. Such a manufacturer would not be selling much longer. A colleague of mine had a very large and precise (those two a contradictory, so you can guess at the kind of expense involved) machining center installed and it took two months before the workpieces were acceptable. That machine too had a gyro and it was definitely there with 'dual purpose', on the one hand the ITAR compliance made it mandatory but I'm pretty sure that both parties were happy the gyro was there in one case to prove that it had not been moved and in the other to make sure that it wasn't moved. There's a lot of money riding on machinery like this, imagine QA at the recipient of a load of parts deciding that they're worthless scrap and then you're arguing with the manufacturer whether or not the machine is at fault or you are at fault because you have shifted the machine. Better if everybody is on the same page in situations like that.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
> it took two months before the workpieces were acceptable. For a new manual Bridgeport knee mill, it may be more than two months before the machinist who runs it is happy with it. >There's a lot of money riding on machinery like this, imagine QA at the recipient of a load of parts deciding that they're worthless scrap How is that even possible for a competent/honest machine shop? As if the shop doesn't inspect its output. Is there some sort of CNC-vending-machine business model that I haven't heard of where clients email their CAD files to the machine and next week a freight truck arrives with the stuff?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > How is that even possible for a competent/honest machine shop? Because measuring things is hard. > As if the shop doesn't inspect its output. Of course they do. And even then it can still happen that what passes inspection at the shop (especially in early runs) does not pass muster with the recipient. Which is why you don't want to be moving your equipment around if you can help it. Depending on the precision required it really doesn't take much to go from 'pass' to 'scrap' and it is not rare at all for the incoming inspection to reject parts that were accepted at the production facility. This is logical because there is money on the line. > Is there some sort of CNC-vending-machine business model that I haven't heard of where clients email their CAD files to the machine and next week a freight truck arrives with the stuff? You seen to have missed the internet revolution in machining, but yes that's exactly the model these days. Only I'd replace 'machine' with 'machine shop' or 'production facility'.
  - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
    >Because measuring things is hard. Harder than making things? No, absolutely not. >And even then it can still happen that what passes inspection at the shop (especially in early runs) does not pass muster with the recipient. That's a communication problem. Happens often enough, but DRM does nothing to fix it. >You seen to have missed the internet revolution in machining, but yes that's exactly the model these days. I know that may be what people want but that's still a fantasy for precision machining. I don't think anyone is near the point that you can fire the machinists and simply hire someone to sweep up the tailings, refill the oil tanks, and slap shipping labels on things, (and then I suppose cash the checks from your mountain chalet).