5 ms·

It's all about function and simplicity. Take a Massey Ferguson 1100 (1964 - 1972) or 175 (1964 - 1975). You could tear them down to the frame with two hammers,

by Loughla 12y ago

It's all about function and simplicity. Take a Massey Ferguson 1100 (1964 - 1972) or 175 (1964 - 1975). You could tear them down to the frame with two hammers, a good (big) wrench set and enough time. I have, and do. I currently run one of each, today, as work machines. Now, everything is computerized and requires a degree in electrical engineering to figure out. That's not me being a Luddite wishing for better days, it's a fact. I can fix mechanical breakdowns in the field, no matter how complicated. Those machines are simple to maintain, cheap to run, and are unbelievably reliable. The process to diagnose and solve issues is as simple as finding the part that is cracked or fell off. My neighbor has a John Deer 5E something or other utility tractor. Same horsepower as the 1100, and smaller, which is nice. BUT, we can't fix a fried circuit on the throttle control - hell, we're lucky to find it without needing to call out the implement dealer. It's that; simplicity. Those mega-tractors and all of the new bells and whistles are great for corporations and large-outfits who can afford to have a machine down for three weeks while you wait for diagnosis and repair.

bjelkeman-again 12y ago
I once got to walk through the engine and gearbox(?) workshop/factory at Maasey Ferguson in the UK. It was like nothing else. Row on row of machinery, which at the time stood still. A haze of machine oil through the factory so you could not see the far wall. It was like being on a set in the movie Brazil.
fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
>Now, everything is computerized and requires a degree in electrical engineering to figure out. Let's be clear here. It requires no such thing. What's required is a technician and a CAN bus reader with the appropriate (proprietary) message decoders. A EE with too much time on his hands is a reasonable substitute for that. This crap is hard to fix because the manufacturers made it that way. They made it that way so they can soak you for more money when things break.
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  The problem is that if you make your stuff easy to fix, it's also easy to reverse engineer. What can I do against the Chinese guy who sells 1000 of my designs a month against my 20, because his labor costs are one tenth? Blow up his factory? I certainly can't sue and expect it to go anywhere...
  - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
    >What can I do You can make better quality stuff. Keeping the messaging protocol a secret hurts customers more than it helps you.
    - spiritplumber 12y ago
      I agree with you in principle, but - quality propagates slowly (you have to build up a reputation for it, etc.) and price propagates quickly, it's right there to see next to the "order" button.
    - gambiting 12y ago
      If that was true people would be only buying $20 US-made Tshirts of good quality,not $5 Chinese ones that fall apart. It's a nice dream that the market decides what's best, but in practice it simply doesn't work.
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        I'll not pretend to be a business genius, but I don't think your analogy is applicable in the farm machinery analytics business. I don't even think it ever will be commoditized to the degree that t-shirts are.
  - luckydude 12y ago
    As a guy who owns 2 tractors and an excavator, and as a software guy who has faced the same problem, you have my sympathy. I think the answer is quality. All my equipment is Kubota, they make good stuff, if you keep on the filters and fluids they will outlive your kids. I never seriously considered chinese tractors. I looked at them, they are cheaper for sure, but you are pretty much on your own if they break, there isn't the dealer network like there is for Kubota or Deere. I'd much rather have a used Kubota than a brand new whatever with yanmar engine in it. My mechanic, who has 40 years of fixing tractors in the San Joaquin valley under his built, claims he has never had to full rebuild on a Kubota. He loves that chinese stuff though, keeps him busy :)
bootload 12y ago
"... It's all about function and simplicity. ... Those machines are simple to maintain, cheap to run, and are unbelievably reliable. ..." Spent my childhood with tractors and machinery and gotta agree. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8670866219 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8670866219 Used tractors to clear and pull down trees, slash and move things about. Small plot, nothing large scale but the machines (eg: Fordson - built in Dagenham, England b/w 1948 and 1952) were cheap, reliable and totally fixable. Fire put an end to these beasts. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/3449252693/in/photostream/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/3449252693/in/photost... Miss them a lot. Examples: (really old 165 diesel) * replace a wrecked PTO https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091356 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091356 and replacing it with a new one https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362074220 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362074220 * tools required to change PTO https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091360 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091360 * job done https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859739 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859739 * hack battery system to recharge by sun https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859639 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859639 Did stuff with tools around the shed to fix machines that allows you to do things absolutely could not do by hand.
zaroth 12y ago
So how much of a factor is this during the purchase process? If someone entered the market and sold simple reliable tools as a price that could sustain their business without resorting to DRM'd circuits to apparently fleece you on the repair costs later... would you select the DRM-free good over the locked down John Deere? Because I think if the answer is yes then the market will correct this soon enough and we can all start shorting DE. If for some reason you're happy to keep buying Deere, then perhaps this isn't quite the problem it's made out to be. My theory would be that to the extent that DRM adds cost without benefits, non-DRM products gain a competitive advantage, can charge higher prices, and can out-compete. Note this doesn't work if they are monopolies or cartels...
gambiting 12y ago
>> Those mega-tractors and all of the new bells and whistles are great for corporations and large-outfits who can afford to have a machine down for three weeks while you wait for diagnosis and repair. The way it works is, that when you buy large number of tractors you sign a contract with John Deere, and in the contract is says that every time the tractor breaks down they HAVE to fix it within 48 hours(or provide a different one), otherwise they have to pay fines as a result from you lacking tools to do your job. It's a common technique in many different industries.

by Loughla 12y ago

bjelkeman-again 12y ago

I once got to walk through the engine and gearbox(?) workshop/factory at Maasey Ferguson in the UK. It was like nothing else. Row on row of machinery, which at the time stood still. A haze of machine oil through the factory so you could not see the far wall. It was like being on a set in the movie Brazil.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago

>Now, everything is computerized and requires a degree in electrical engineering to figure out. Let's be clear here. It requires no such thing. What's required is a technician and a CAN bus reader with the appropriate (proprietary) message decoders. A EE with too much time on his hands is a reasonable substitute for that. This crap is hard to fix because the manufacturers made it that way. They made it that way so they can soak you for more money when things break.

spiritplumber 12y ago
The problem is that if you make your stuff easy to fix, it's also easy to reverse engineer. What can I do against the Chinese guy who sells 1000 of my designs a month against my 20, because his labor costs are one tenth? Blow up his factory? I certainly can't sue and expect it to go anywhere...
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  >What can I do You can make better quality stuff. Keeping the messaging protocol a secret hurts customers more than it helps you.
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    I agree with you in principle, but - quality propagates slowly (you have to build up a reputation for it, etc.) and price propagates quickly, it's right there to see next to the "order" button.
  - gambiting 12y ago
    If that was true people would be only buying $20 US-made Tshirts of good quality,not $5 Chinese ones that fall apart. It's a nice dream that the market decides what's best, but in practice it simply doesn't work.
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      I'll not pretend to be a business genius, but I don't think your analogy is applicable in the farm machinery analytics business. I don't even think it ever will be commoditized to the degree that t-shirts are.
- luckydude 12y ago
  As a guy who owns 2 tractors and an excavator, and as a software guy who has faced the same problem, you have my sympathy. I think the answer is quality. All my equipment is Kubota, they make good stuff, if you keep on the filters and fluids they will outlive your kids. I never seriously considered chinese tractors. I looked at them, they are cheaper for sure, but you are pretty much on your own if they break, there isn't the dealer network like there is for Kubota or Deere. I'd much rather have a used Kubota than a brand new whatever with yanmar engine in it. My mechanic, who has 40 years of fixing tractors in the San Joaquin valley under his built, claims he has never had to full rebuild on a Kubota. He loves that chinese stuff though, keeps him busy :)

bootload 12y ago

"... It's all about function and simplicity. ... Those machines are simple to maintain, cheap to run, and are unbelievably reliable. ..." Spent my childhood with tractors and machinery and gotta agree. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8670866219 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8670866219 Used tractors to clear and pull down trees, slash and move things about. Small plot, nothing large scale but the machines (eg: Fordson - built in Dagenham, England b/w 1948 and 1952) were cheap, reliable and totally fixable. Fire put an end to these beasts. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/3449252693/in/photostream/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/3449252693/in/photost... Miss them a lot. Examples: (really old 165 diesel) * replace a wrecked PTO https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091356 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091356 and replacing it with a new one https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362074220 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362074220 * tools required to change PTO https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091360 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/5362091360 * job done https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859739 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859739 * hack battery system to recharge by sun https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859639 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/8479859639 Did stuff with tools around the shed to fix machines that allows you to do things absolutely could not do by hand.

zaroth 12y ago

So how much of a factor is this during the purchase process? If someone entered the market and sold simple reliable tools as a price that could sustain their business without resorting to DRM'd circuits to apparently fleece you on the repair costs later... would you select the DRM-free good over the locked down John Deere? Because I think if the answer is yes then the market will correct this soon enough and we can all start shorting DE. If for some reason you're happy to keep buying Deere, then perhaps this isn't quite the problem it's made out to be. My theory would be that to the extent that DRM adds cost without benefits, non-DRM products gain a competitive advantage, can charge higher prices, and can out-compete. Note this doesn't work if they are monopolies or cartels...

gambiting 12y ago

>> Those mega-tractors and all of the new bells and whistles are great for corporations and large-outfits who can afford to have a machine down for three weeks while you wait for diagnosis and repair. The way it works is, that when you buy large number of tractors you sign a contract with John Deere, and in the contract is says that every time the tractor breaks down they HAVE to fix it within 48 hours(or provide a different one), otherwise they have to pay fines as a result from you lacking tools to do your job. It's a common technique in many different industries.