8 ms·

The other issue I think will be longevity. I grew up on a farm, and every piece of machinery that we used was older then I was by about 10 years, at least. Farm

by Trisell 12y ago

The other issue I think will be longevity. I grew up on a farm, and every piece of machinery that we used was older then I was by about 10 years, at least. Farmer's expect to purchase a tractor, and then run that piece of equipment for the entire life of the FARMER. It feels like the tractor manufactures today are catering to the mega farms, not the smaller farms that make up a larger portion of our farming infrastructure. And the small farms only buy a new tractor every 10 - 20 years. Not every 3 - 5 years for a tax break.

digi_owl 12y ago
Used to be the attitude about many things before the consumer oriented marketing set in to keep the factory churn going.
will_work4tears 12y ago
What sort of machinery did farmers use "back then." (not sure how old you are) I ask, because some of these mega-tractors have a lot of functionality (more complexity seems to just cause more points of failure), but you can still buy a good old general purpose tractor that will last a lot longer. *not a farmer, but really into homesteading and getting a small self sustaining farm going at some point.
- Loughla 12y ago
  It's all about function and simplicity. Take a Massey Ferguson 1100 (1964 - 1972) or 175 (1964 - 1975). You could tear them down to the frame with two hammers, a good (big) wrench set and enough time. I have, and do. I currently run one of each, today, as work machines. Now, everything is computerized and requires a degree in electrical engineering to figure out. That's not me being a Luddite wishing for better days, it's a fact. I can fix mechanical breakdowns in the field, no matter how complicated. Those machines are simple to maintain, cheap to run, and are unbelievably reliable. The process to diagnose and solve issues is as simple as finding the part that is cracked or fell off. My neighbor has a John Deer 5E something or other utility tractor. Same horsepower as the 1100, and smaller, which is nice. BUT, we can't fix a fried circuit on the throttle control - hell, we're lucky to find it without needing to call out the implement dealer. It's that; simplicity. Those mega-tractors and all of the new bells and whistles are great for corporations and large-outfits who can afford to have a machine down for three weeks while you wait for diagnosis and repair.
  - bjelkeman-again 12y ago
    I once got to walk through the engine and gearbox(?) workshop/factory at Maasey Ferguson in the UK. It was like nothing else. Row on row of machinery, which at the time stood still. A haze of machine oil through the factory so you could not see the far wall. It was like being on a set in the movie Brazil.
  - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
    >Now, everything is computerized and requires a degree in electrical engineering to figure out. Let's be clear here. It requires no such thing. What's required is a technician and a CAN bus reader with the appropriate (proprietary) message decoders. A EE with too much time on his hands is a reasonable substitute for that. This crap is hard to fix because the manufacturers made it that way. They made it that way so they can soak you for more money when things break.
    - spiritplumber 12y ago
      The problem is that if you make your stuff easy to fix, it's also easy to reverse engineer. What can I do against the Chinese guy who sells 1000 of my designs a month against my 20, because his labor costs are one tenth? Blow up his factory? I certainly can't sue and expect it to go anywhere...
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        >What can I do You can make better quality stuff. Keeping the messaging protocol a secret hurts customers more than it helps you.
        spiritplumber 12y ago
        I agree with you in principle, but - quality propagates slowly (you have to build up a reputation for it, etc.) and price propagates quickly, it's right there to see next to the "order" button.
        12y ago
- bjelkeman-again 12y ago
  Open Source Ecology is interesting in this context. It is less about ecology and more about open source hardware, including farming machinery. http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Agriculture http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Agriculture
  - kefka 12y ago
    I have a professor who worked there for 6 months. He said it was one of the most unorganized positions he's worked at. There's no focus, and during the media blitz from TED, he got way too much money, and didn't know how to spend it effectively.
    - pstuart 12y ago
      I've been following OSE casually for several years - it was an intriguing proposition. The online presence gives the impression that it has collapsed. I think Marcin has squandered the energy and we'll not be seeing anything more from it. A disheartening article: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-civilization-kit http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-civilizatio...
Loughla 12y ago
That second comment nails it. Family farms are going the way of the dinosaur, and large outfits want a machine they can use for three seasons, depreciate and eliminate for both a tax write-off and upgrade. I legitimately believe we'll see the death of true family farms in my lifetime (I'm in my 30's). What we'll see are family farms in name only, with a multi-million dollar, multi-national backend.
- benmanns 12y ago
  Why would you spend $100k on a tractor every 3 years to get a $30k discount on taxes?
  - jchrisa 12y ago
    The used market is pretty good.
    - graeme 12y ago
      But you need to declare the sale as capital gains. I also don't understand this argument. I use computers for my business. It makes it cheaper to get one for business than for personal use, but I'd still like the things to last as long as possible.
      - Spooky23 12y ago
        A PC is different because there isn't much correlation between age and operating costs. With something like a server, as long as you can deploy them quickly, you actually can reduce costs by replacing them in step with the Intel tick/tock cadence.
    - kalleboo 12y ago
      Only for as long as the DRM key-holders allow it to be
  - Trisell 12y ago
    Because in the US, a tractor is considered an tool, and thus the farmers/farms get a 100% write off of the entire purchase price.
megaman22 12y ago
That is the great thing about that old equipment, especially the really mass-produced models. Everything is mechanical, and most of it is built out of heavy duty steel, so between wire, duct tape, a stick welder, and a hammer, you can fix 90% of breakages. If something goes that isn't that easy, there are after-market manufacturers, or you can take something that isn't quite the right part and modify it to work, or find a salvage job on craigslist to scrounge from pretty easily. I've got a John Deere M that is nearly 75 years old and still gets the job done.
- TrevorJ 12y ago
  A lot of my grand dad's implements were from the 50's - 70's. I never knew him to take any of them anywhere to be fixed. He could to it all with a relatively small collection of tools. Heck, when a tread linkage broke on his D9 Caterpillar we managed to get a new one and get it installed right in the field.
tormeh 12y ago
What's up with the tax breaks everywhere? Guh...
bsder 12y ago
> the smaller farms that make up a larger portion of our farming infrastructure Really? Do you have a citation for this? All the data I have seen says that small farmers are basically nil in terms of production, profitability, and land area relative to the big mega farms.
- patmcguire 12y ago
  "In 2011, 96 percent of U.S. crop farms were family farms, and they accounted for 87 percent of the value of crop production." http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/1156726/err152.pdf http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/1156726/err152.pdf And since the devil's in the definitions: "ERS defines a family farm to be one in which the principal operator, and people related to the principal operator by blood or marriage, own more than half of the farm business" So I think that's valid.
  - mememememe3 12y ago
    The PDF you linked is about how farms are much larger now. The family thing is what you responded to, but the actual pdf does state that small farms have gone or are going away. The previous comments were about small family farms, not just 'family' farms.
    - patmcguire 12y ago
      Yeah, you're right, I got caught up in the "operator" language, thought it meant more direct management. I couldn't find any place that did something like cumulative acreage by size that you see with income, i.e. top 5% of farms have half the land.
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    Definitions are everything here - what are considered "smaller farms?" - My cousin in Alberta, her husband, and two kids with occasional contract help farms two sections (1280 acres) of various crops - and his role in the harvest/planter (outside of parking, which is epic when he has a full set of fertilizing tanks connected) seems to be predominantly supervisory - GPS and software-defined systems do most of the actual work now. He even has a mini-fridge in his Air-Conditioned Cab. Would we consider that to be a smaller farm?
Spooky23 12y ago
I worked on a farm in high school in the 90s... They were a dairy and hay operation. The "new" tractor that ran the bakers and equipment was a 1950s Ford. They had serial ancient Farmalls from the 1930s that hauled wagons and pulled rakes. I don't recall ever having a serious breakdown.
joshmlewis 12y ago
If you're interested in heavy equipment we will be hiring for a full-time developer position(s) soon. Shoot me an email regardless and I'd love to chat: josh [at] dirtjockey.com.
marincounty 12y ago
I feel the same way about new automobiles. I look at a new car and I think "I wonder how many Computers, and Emission sensors that vechicle has?". "Will it be a pain in the ass to work on?" (Don't get me wrong I like Emission standards, and performance, but engineers have gone Overboard!) Repair is not as simple as hooking up a scanner to the ALDL and replacing the faulty part. I had a newish Dodge truck that had that was stalling(periodically). It was actually owned and loved by a 70 plus relative, and loved this particular truck. I went to automotive school, so I have always worked on the family vechicles. Well I checked the truck's computers with two different scanners--no faults. I checked individual components with a DVOM--in spec's. Took it to the Dealer--they couldn't find anything wrong. Well it got worse over the years, and owner decided to bring it to another Dealer, after doing all my on diagnostics again. I thought they might find the one sensor I missed. Well this is what they did; They literally replaced every sensor near, or within a few feet of the Throttle Body---still didn't quite work, so they reflashed the computer--runs, but idles too high. They charged family member close to 3 grand. So the only autos I actually get excited about are pre 1972, and I don't feel good about it because they pollute.(exception--certain small engine cars like Toyota's from any year). While I'm on it--Motor Emission manuals are filled with errors. If your car fails smog, especially the visual, take it to a shop that has access to Online5(Mitchell manuals). And No--1988 toyoya trucks(naturally aspirated) trucks were not required to have a MIL light. The editors at Motor Publications didn't know the difference between naturally aspirated, and FI. I was beyond shocked! Moral of story--practical use of technology--fine. Three computers, 5 02 sensors, literally a sensor wire going to coffee cup holder--Fuffing Rediculious. (I have never seen a sensor to coffee cup, but I wouldn't put it past them)

by Trisell 12y ago

digi_owl 12y ago

Used to be the attitude about many things before the consumer oriented marketing set in to keep the factory churn going.

will_work4tears 12y ago

What sort of machinery did farmers use "back then." (not sure how old you are) I ask, because some of these mega-tractors have a lot of functionality (more complexity seems to just cause more points of failure), but you can still buy a good old general purpose tractor that will last a lot longer. *not a farmer, but really into homesteading and getting a small self sustaining farm going at some point.

Loughla 12y ago
It's all about function and simplicity. Take a Massey Ferguson 1100 (1964 - 1972) or 175 (1964 - 1975). You could tear them down to the frame with two hammers, a good (big) wrench set and enough time. I have, and do. I currently run one of each, today, as work machines. Now, everything is computerized and requires a degree in electrical engineering to figure out. That's not me being a Luddite wishing for better days, it's a fact. I can fix mechanical breakdowns in the field, no matter how complicated. Those machines are simple to maintain, cheap to run, and are unbelievably reliable. The process to diagnose and solve issues is as simple as finding the part that is cracked or fell off. My neighbor has a John Deer 5E something or other utility tractor. Same horsepower as the 1100, and smaller, which is nice. BUT, we can't fix a fried circuit on the throttle control - hell, we're lucky to find it without needing to call out the implement dealer. It's that; simplicity. Those mega-tractors and all of the new bells and whistles are great for corporations and large-outfits who can afford to have a machine down for three weeks while you wait for diagnosis and repair.
- bjelkeman-again 12y ago
  I once got to walk through the engine and gearbox(?) workshop/factory at Maasey Ferguson in the UK. It was like nothing else. Row on row of machinery, which at the time stood still. A haze of machine oil through the factory so you could not see the far wall. It was like being on a set in the movie Brazil.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  >Now, everything is computerized and requires a degree in electrical engineering to figure out. Let's be clear here. It requires no such thing. What's required is a technician and a CAN bus reader with the appropriate (proprietary) message decoders. A EE with too much time on his hands is a reasonable substitute for that. This crap is hard to fix because the manufacturers made it that way. They made it that way so they can soak you for more money when things break.
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    The problem is that if you make your stuff easy to fix, it's also easy to reverse engineer. What can I do against the Chinese guy who sells 1000 of my designs a month against my 20, because his labor costs are one tenth? Blow up his factory? I certainly can't sue and expect it to go anywhere...
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      >What can I do You can make better quality stuff. Keeping the messaging protocol a secret hurts customers more than it helps you.
      - spiritplumber 12y ago
        I agree with you in principle, but - quality propagates slowly (you have to build up a reputation for it, etc.) and price propagates quickly, it's right there to see next to the "order" button.
      - 12y ago
bjelkeman-again 12y ago
Open Source Ecology is interesting in this context. It is less about ecology and more about open source hardware, including farming machinery. http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Agriculture http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Agriculture
- kefka 12y ago
  I have a professor who worked there for 6 months. He said it was one of the most unorganized positions he's worked at. There's no focus, and during the media blitz from TED, he got way too much money, and didn't know how to spend it effectively.
  - pstuart 12y ago
    I've been following OSE casually for several years - it was an intriguing proposition. The online presence gives the impression that it has collapsed. I think Marcin has squandered the energy and we'll not be seeing anything more from it. A disheartening article: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-civilization-kit http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-civilizatio...

Loughla 12y ago

That second comment nails it. Family farms are going the way of the dinosaur, and large outfits want a machine they can use for three seasons, depreciate and eliminate for both a tax write-off and upgrade. I legitimately believe we'll see the death of true family farms in my lifetime (I'm in my 30's). What we'll see are family farms in name only, with a multi-million dollar, multi-national backend.

benmanns 12y ago
Why would you spend $100k on a tractor every 3 years to get a $30k discount on taxes?
- jchrisa 12y ago
  The used market is pretty good.
  - graeme 12y ago
    But you need to declare the sale as capital gains. I also don't understand this argument. I use computers for my business. It makes it cheaper to get one for business than for personal use, but I'd still like the things to last as long as possible.
    - Spooky23 12y ago
      A PC is different because there isn't much correlation between age and operating costs. With something like a server, as long as you can deploy them quickly, you actually can reduce costs by replacing them in step with the Intel tick/tock cadence.
  - kalleboo 12y ago
    Only for as long as the DRM key-holders allow it to be
- Trisell 12y ago
  Because in the US, a tractor is considered an tool, and thus the farmers/farms get a 100% write off of the entire purchase price.

megaman22 12y ago

That is the great thing about that old equipment, especially the really mass-produced models. Everything is mechanical, and most of it is built out of heavy duty steel, so between wire, duct tape, a stick welder, and a hammer, you can fix 90% of breakages. If something goes that isn't that easy, there are after-market manufacturers, or you can take something that isn't quite the right part and modify it to work, or find a salvage job on craigslist to scrounge from pretty easily. I've got a John Deere M that is nearly 75 years old and still gets the job done.

TrevorJ 12y ago
A lot of my grand dad's implements were from the 50's - 70's. I never knew him to take any of them anywhere to be fixed. He could to it all with a relatively small collection of tools. Heck, when a tread linkage broke on his D9 Caterpillar we managed to get a new one and get it installed right in the field.

tormeh 12y ago

What's up with the tax breaks everywhere? Guh...

bsder 12y ago

> the smaller farms that make up a larger portion of our farming infrastructure Really? Do you have a citation for this? All the data I have seen says that small farmers are basically nil in terms of production, profitability, and land area relative to the big mega farms.

patmcguire 12y ago
"In 2011, 96 percent of U.S. crop farms were family farms, and they accounted for 87 percent of the value of crop production." http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/1156726/err152.pdf http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/1156726/err152.pdf And since the devil's in the definitions: "ERS defines a family farm to be one in which the principal operator, and people related to the principal operator by blood or marriage, own more than half of the farm business" So I think that's valid.
- mememememe3 12y ago
  The PDF you linked is about how farms are much larger now. The family thing is what you responded to, but the actual pdf does state that small farms have gone or are going away. The previous comments were about small family farms, not just 'family' farms.
  - patmcguire 12y ago
    Yeah, you're right, I got caught up in the "operator" language, thought it meant more direct management. I couldn't find any place that did something like cumulative acreage by size that you see with income, i.e. top 5% of farms have half the land.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  Definitions are everything here - what are considered "smaller farms?" - My cousin in Alberta, her husband, and two kids with occasional contract help farms two sections (1280 acres) of various crops - and his role in the harvest/planter (outside of parking, which is epic when he has a full set of fertilizing tanks connected) seems to be predominantly supervisory - GPS and software-defined systems do most of the actual work now. He even has a mini-fridge in his Air-Conditioned Cab. Would we consider that to be a smaller farm?

Spooky23 12y ago

I worked on a farm in high school in the 90s... They were a dairy and hay operation. The "new" tractor that ran the bakers and equipment was a 1950s Ford. They had serial ancient Farmalls from the 1930s that hauled wagons and pulled rakes. I don't recall ever having a serious breakdown.

joshmlewis 12y ago

If you're interested in heavy equipment we will be hiring for a full-time developer position(s) soon. Shoot me an email regardless and I'd love to chat: josh [at] dirtjockey.com.

marincounty 12y ago

I feel the same way about new automobiles. I look at a new car and I think "I wonder how many Computers, and Emission sensors that vechicle has?". "Will it be a pain in the ass to work on?" (Don't get me wrong I like Emission standards, and performance, but engineers have gone Overboard!) Repair is not as simple as hooking up a scanner to the ALDL and replacing the faulty part. I had a newish Dodge truck that had that was stalling(periodically). It was actually owned and loved by a 70 plus relative, and loved this particular truck. I went to automotive school, so I have always worked on the family vechicles. Well I checked the truck's computers with two different scanners--no faults. I checked individual components with a DVOM--in spec's. Took it to the Dealer--they couldn't find anything wrong. Well it got worse over the years, and owner decided to bring it to another Dealer, after doing all my on diagnostics again. I thought they might find the one sensor I missed. Well this is what they did; They literally replaced every sensor near, or within a few feet of the Throttle Body---still didn't quite work, so they reflashed the computer--runs, but idles too high. They charged family member close to 3 grand. So the only autos I actually get excited about are pre 1972, and I don't feel good about it because they pollute.(exception--certain small engine cars like Toyota's from any year). While I'm on it--Motor Emission manuals are filled with errors. If your car fails smog, especially the visual, take it to a shop that has access to Online5(Mitchell manuals). And No--1988 toyoya trucks(naturally aspirated) trucks were not required to have a MIL light. The editors at Motor Publications didn't know the difference between naturally aspirated, and FI. I was beyond shocked! Moral of story--practical use of technology--fine. Three computers, 5 02 sensors, literally a sensor wire going to coffee cup holder--Fuffing Rediculious. (I have never seen a sensor to coffee cup, but I wouldn't put it past them)