7 ms·

> 2. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids won’t either It

by iak8god 12y ago

> 2. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids won’t either It's even worse when parents care very much about giving their children wrong information about topics. Many people I know were homeschooled by conservative Christians who specifically wanted their children to believe things that are not actually true: that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that condoms are not effective at preventing pregnancy and tranmissions of STIs, that America's founding fathers intended the place to be a Christian theocracy, that the Bible gives a complete and accurate account of ancient history, and so on.

tomohawk 12y ago
This statement really comes across as bigoted, and really just gives ammunition to people looking for excuses to withdraw from society. It takes all kinds to make up a society. You might think that an 18% pregnancy rate (check wikipedia) for typical condom use is 'effective', but others may not. You may not like what the Bible has to say, but others probably have a different view. I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or burning down villages, but I do see alot of them involved in the community in helpful ways, so I'm not too worried that they may be passing their beliefs down to their children.
- civilian 12y ago
  iak8god isn't bigoted. Hardcore Christians do an incredible disservice to their children when the homeschool. My friend grew up in a Christian household and, while he wasn't homeschooled, he was told that "science is bullshit propaganda and we don't care if you don't do well in public school science". At this point he's an atheist and he's pissed at his parents for it. Yeah, they might be decent and kind people. But being kind and decent is not a replacement for being effective. > I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or burning down villages, Lutherans do get a mostly free pass, but you should listen to this: http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-48-prophets-of-doom/ http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-48-prophet... I suspect that there's a correlation between the amount of secular education given to (or forced upon) a religious population and how peaceful they are.
  - WillPostForFood 12y ago
    The history of the 20th century would disagree. Cambodian killing field, Soviet gulag, cultural revolution. The most rabid secular governments were among the most brutal. Look at what's been happening in North Korea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
    - cauterized 12y ago
      GP said secular education, not secular government.
    - alasdair_ 12y ago
      Did Pol Pot, Stalin etc. Commit these acts BECAUSE they were nonreligious, or was this simply another aspect of their character? If the latter, one could equally point out that these people were male or non-American, or under six feet tall or liked three sugars in their tea or any other attribute and would be equally meaningful.
    - jarin 12y ago
      I'd argue North Korea isn't a secular government. The Kims are portrayed to their people as a lineage of gods under the divine authority of Kim Il-Sung, and their people are forced to literally worship them. Stalin's government was also very anti-religion, but it was based on portraying him as a secular divine figure, "infallible sage, 'the greatest leader', 'sublime strategist of all times and nations'", etc.
  - jauer 12y ago
    The good thing is that flavor of homeschooling is fairly rare. Growing up my parent were involved in a fairly rare/fringe homeschooling movement (IBLP/ATI) that espoused all the things that ika8god mentioned. Out of the ~30 families in our area homeschool coop I think only 4 were that far out.
    - Domenic_S 12y ago
      Oh my gosh, ATI. I had some friends who were into that, and I even borrowed their Sacred Texts that showed with diagrams how boys and girls should dress. I was homeschooled but those guys were out there. Made it hard to make friends though, since a good portion of our group was ATI. I was kind of an outcast because I listened to music that had drums in it.
- throwaway344 12y ago
  That rate for pregnancy that you quote is not per-use - it's for an entire year of imperfect (normal) condom usage. With better sex ed and more knowledge that can further be reduced substantially. Plus, Lutherans and other christians did go around burning down villages and killing people. Christianity is no more enlightened than Islam in that respect. There are extremists in both faiths. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/9313/9611/6384/truth_about_condoms.pdf http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/9313/9611/6384/truth_...
  - tomohawk 12y ago
    With perfect use, condoms still yield a pregnancy rate of 2% per year. I can't think of anything else with such life consequences where I'd think that is acceptable risk. I certainly wouldn't drive a car that had a 2% failure rate. You may have different opinions on the matter. That's what makes this country so great - we can still make our own choices, to include how we teach our own children about risk. The comment lumping Islam and Christianity together is way off base. With Islam, the founder was a man of violence. With Christianity, the founder was a man who shunned violence. So, while 'christians' have committed great acts of violence, they are certainly not acting in accord with the belief system they espouse, nor are they following the example of their founder. This just shows that people are not always motivated (good or bad) by the belief system they espouse. They have other motivations as well. The question to ask is, how does a person's belief system instruct them in their life? Does their belief system sanction violence? coercive behavior? Or, does it invite the believer to change their behavior and act more constructively? How many tens of millions of people did Stalin and Mao kill? These men were committed Atheists who sought to coercively convert anyone they could. Should it be acceptable to criticize Atheist parents who are homeschooling their children, simply because some Athiests did terrible things? I know we all want to reach out and make sure that all children get the best shake at life, but the best way to do this is to support their parents.
    - renox 12y ago
      > With perfect use, condoms still yield a pregnancy rate of 2% per year. Change your brand of condoms ;-) More seriously, it's considered a good idea to use BOTH condoms and the pill. > With Christianity, the founder was a man who shunned violence. Except when he expelled the vendors from the temple apparently.. As for children education.. As an atheist I would teach my children about all the religions the many dead religions, the living religions, the cults, the non-religious opinions (atheism, agnosticism), somehow I doubt that most religious people do that..
- A_COMPUTER 12y ago
  It's not really bigoted, but the evolution fight is used as a standard in the culture war. I have six friends from the same family that were all taught creationism and they still have better critical thinking skills than the average kid with a public education ends up with. to be clear I think creationism is stupid and insupportable, but it didn't end up hurting them that bad and I know plenty of people with "better" educations that don't seem to be inoculated against believing stupid stuff. For instance, people I know that have expressed skepticism about vaccinations are evenly split between people I would classify as "conservative Christian" and "progressive".
  - lamuerteflaca 12y ago
    Just like you I also have plenty of anecdotes.
    - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
      I wasn't asserting a universal claim other than that believing some stupid things doesn't mean you're uneducated or stupid with regards to other things.
- ScottBurson 12y ago
  You might want to read this [0]. It starts: As someone who participated in the rise of the religious right in the 1970s and 1980s, I can tell you that you can’t understand the modern Republican Party and its hatred of government unless you understand the evangelical home-school movement. [0] http://www.salon.com/2015/01/20/the_rights_home_school_conspiracy_how_i_helped_gop_launch_a_religious_war/ http://www.salon.com/2015/01/20/the_rights_home_school_consp...
  - strictnein 12y ago
    Salon... where I would definitely go for a straight forward and honest view of something on the right. The place to go to reaffirm your hatred of people who you disagree with. It was neat how he worked in the evil Kochmonsters at the end there. And Halliburton. And Palin. Great article... next up, a FreeRepublic discussion of public unions...
    - hga 12y ago
      Indeed. Any essay discussing this topic without mentioning Jimmy Carter siccing the IRS on Christian schools is ... by someone not quite inhabiting the same universe as I do. Maybe. This essay doesn't really go into that, its thesis at 0th approximation is that Christians setting up an independent school system/society is axiomatically illegitimate ("diversity", as many have noted, doesn't extend to thought/worldviews/ideology, and "liberalism" or whatever you want to call it is a competing non-religion religion every bit as doctrinaire and severe as these Christians'). But the article claims that this had an outsized affect on politics and particularly the Republican party, and that simply would not have happened without Carter's action. "Live and let live" is an old and sound American tradition. Taking people's children away from them, in wherever on the scale of figurative to literal in this case you'd put it ... well, you might as well try it with a mother bear and her cubs. That's what really energized the Religious Right in politics, and why its time in the sun was so short.
    - iak8god 12y ago
      Frank Schaeffer has better first-hand knowledge of this topic than just about anyone else alive. Wikipedia[1] would be a fine place to start educating yourself about his and his father's outsized roles in the formation of the religious right. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer#Political_activism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer#Political_ac...
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or burning down villages, If you don't see Christian terrorism (including in the U.S.), its because you aren't paying attention. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
  - WillPostForFood 12y ago
    Still upset about the gunpowder plot in 1605? If that page covers the worst of Christian terrorism, it is a vindication. There will always be crazies co-opting ideologies. The problem is you could write a wiki page about 10 times that long on muslim terror acts in the last year.
    - cbd1984 12y ago
      > Still upset about the gunpowder plot in 1605? No, Oklahoma City is quite enough, thank you, as is the continued campaign against gay and trans rights, which is only nonviolent because the violence isn't reported on as part of a coherent campaign.
- JonnieCache 12y ago
  >You might think that an 18% pregnancy rate (check wikipedia) That's if you don't use them properly. I wonder why that might happen?
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Isn't bigotry typically defined as an irrational dislike?
- iak8god 12y ago
  Well, I accidentally kicked off a bit of a storm in this thread. Others have addressed your points in more depth than I care to, and the current leaf comments are wandering close to getting Godwin'd, so it might be time to wind this down. You haven't explained how you got bigotry out of my comment and I wish you would.
WalterBright 12y ago
The trouble is, who gets to be the arbiter of the "truth".
mikerichards 12y ago
Those parents would be telling their children that stuff whether they're home-schooled or not.
hga 12y ago
Let me make a reductionist argument here: Do these people teach their children reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic? If they do, all other defects (as you see them) can be remedied in the future. The simple demonstrable fact that the public schools in the US are often bad if not hopeless (e.g. no phonics) at even those modest goals is enough for me to support even snake handling Pentecostals. Not able to read == no future intellectual life absent, let me put it, a "miracle".
prostoalex 12y ago
But Common Core testing standards would take care of it, seems like?

by iak8god 12y ago

tomohawk 12y ago

This statement really comes across as bigoted, and really just gives ammunition to people looking for excuses to withdraw from society. It takes all kinds to make up a society. You might think that an 18% pregnancy rate (check wikipedia) for typical condom use is 'effective', but others may not. You may not like what the Bible has to say, but others probably have a different view. I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or burning down villages, but I do see alot of them involved in the community in helpful ways, so I'm not too worried that they may be passing their beliefs down to their children.

civilian 12y ago
iak8god isn't bigoted. Hardcore Christians do an incredible disservice to their children when the homeschool. My friend grew up in a Christian household and, while he wasn't homeschooled, he was told that "science is bullshit propaganda and we don't care if you don't do well in public school science". At this point he's an atheist and he's pissed at his parents for it. Yeah, they might be decent and kind people. But being kind and decent is not a replacement for being effective. > I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or burning down villages, Lutherans do get a mostly free pass, but you should listen to this: http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-48-prophets-of-doom/ http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-48-prophet... I suspect that there's a correlation between the amount of secular education given to (or forced upon) a religious population and how peaceful they are.
- WillPostForFood 12y ago
  The history of the 20th century would disagree. Cambodian killing field, Soviet gulag, cultural revolution. The most rabid secular governments were among the most brutal. Look at what's been happening in North Korea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
  - cauterized 12y ago
    GP said secular education, not secular government.
  - alasdair_ 12y ago
    Did Pol Pot, Stalin etc. Commit these acts BECAUSE they were nonreligious, or was this simply another aspect of their character? If the latter, one could equally point out that these people were male or non-American, or under six feet tall or liked three sugars in their tea or any other attribute and would be equally meaningful.
  - jarin 12y ago
    I'd argue North Korea isn't a secular government. The Kims are portrayed to their people as a lineage of gods under the divine authority of Kim Il-Sung, and their people are forced to literally worship them. Stalin's government was also very anti-religion, but it was based on portraying him as a secular divine figure, "infallible sage, 'the greatest leader', 'sublime strategist of all times and nations'", etc.
- jauer 12y ago
  The good thing is that flavor of homeschooling is fairly rare. Growing up my parent were involved in a fairly rare/fringe homeschooling movement (IBLP/ATI) that espoused all the things that ika8god mentioned. Out of the ~30 families in our area homeschool coop I think only 4 were that far out.
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    Oh my gosh, ATI. I had some friends who were into that, and I even borrowed their Sacred Texts that showed with diagrams how boys and girls should dress. I was homeschooled but those guys were out there. Made it hard to make friends though, since a good portion of our group was ATI. I was kind of an outcast because I listened to music that had drums in it.
throwaway344 12y ago
That rate for pregnancy that you quote is not per-use - it's for an entire year of imperfect (normal) condom usage. With better sex ed and more knowledge that can further be reduced substantially. Plus, Lutherans and other christians did go around burning down villages and killing people. Christianity is no more enlightened than Islam in that respect. There are extremists in both faiths. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/9313/9611/6384/truth_about_condoms.pdf http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/9313/9611/6384/truth_...
- tomohawk 12y ago
  With perfect use, condoms still yield a pregnancy rate of 2% per year. I can't think of anything else with such life consequences where I'd think that is acceptable risk. I certainly wouldn't drive a car that had a 2% failure rate. You may have different opinions on the matter. That's what makes this country so great - we can still make our own choices, to include how we teach our own children about risk. The comment lumping Islam and Christianity together is way off base. With Islam, the founder was a man of violence. With Christianity, the founder was a man who shunned violence. So, while 'christians' have committed great acts of violence, they are certainly not acting in accord with the belief system they espouse, nor are they following the example of their founder. This just shows that people are not always motivated (good or bad) by the belief system they espouse. They have other motivations as well. The question to ask is, how does a person's belief system instruct them in their life? Does their belief system sanction violence? coercive behavior? Or, does it invite the believer to change their behavior and act more constructively? How many tens of millions of people did Stalin and Mao kill? These men were committed Atheists who sought to coercively convert anyone they could. Should it be acceptable to criticize Atheist parents who are homeschooling their children, simply because some Athiests did terrible things? I know we all want to reach out and make sure that all children get the best shake at life, but the best way to do this is to support their parents.
  - renox 12y ago
    > With perfect use, condoms still yield a pregnancy rate of 2% per year. Change your brand of condoms ;-) More seriously, it's considered a good idea to use BOTH condoms and the pill. > With Christianity, the founder was a man who shunned violence. Except when he expelled the vendors from the temple apparently.. As for children education.. As an atheist I would teach my children about all the religions the many dead religions, the living religions, the cults, the non-religious opinions (atheism, agnosticism), somehow I doubt that most religious people do that..
A_COMPUTER 12y ago
It's not really bigoted, but the evolution fight is used as a standard in the culture war. I have six friends from the same family that were all taught creationism and they still have better critical thinking skills than the average kid with a public education ends up with. to be clear I think creationism is stupid and insupportable, but it didn't end up hurting them that bad and I know plenty of people with "better" educations that don't seem to be inoculated against believing stupid stuff. For instance, people I know that have expressed skepticism about vaccinations are evenly split between people I would classify as "conservative Christian" and "progressive".
- lamuerteflaca 12y ago
  Just like you I also have plenty of anecdotes.
  - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
    I wasn't asserting a universal claim other than that believing some stupid things doesn't mean you're uneducated or stupid with regards to other things.
ScottBurson 12y ago
You might want to read this [0]. It starts: As someone who participated in the rise of the religious right in the 1970s and 1980s, I can tell you that you can’t understand the modern Republican Party and its hatred of government unless you understand the evangelical home-school movement. [0] http://www.salon.com/2015/01/20/the_rights_home_school_conspiracy_how_i_helped_gop_launch_a_religious_war/ http://www.salon.com/2015/01/20/the_rights_home_school_consp...
- strictnein 12y ago
  Salon... where I would definitely go for a straight forward and honest view of something on the right. The place to go to reaffirm your hatred of people who you disagree with. It was neat how he worked in the evil Kochmonsters at the end there. And Halliburton. And Palin. Great article... next up, a FreeRepublic discussion of public unions...
  - hga 12y ago
    Indeed. Any essay discussing this topic without mentioning Jimmy Carter siccing the IRS on Christian schools is ... by someone not quite inhabiting the same universe as I do. Maybe. This essay doesn't really go into that, its thesis at 0th approximation is that Christians setting up an independent school system/society is axiomatically illegitimate ("diversity", as many have noted, doesn't extend to thought/worldviews/ideology, and "liberalism" or whatever you want to call it is a competing non-religion religion every bit as doctrinaire and severe as these Christians'). But the article claims that this had an outsized affect on politics and particularly the Republican party, and that simply would not have happened without Carter's action. "Live and let live" is an old and sound American tradition. Taking people's children away from them, in wherever on the scale of figurative to literal in this case you'd put it ... well, you might as well try it with a mother bear and her cubs. That's what really energized the Religious Right in politics, and why its time in the sun was so short.
  - iak8god 12y ago
    Frank Schaeffer has better first-hand knowledge of this topic than just about anyone else alive. Wikipedia[1] would be a fine place to start educating yourself about his and his father's outsized roles in the formation of the religious right. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer#Political_activism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer#Political_ac...
dragonwriter 12y ago
> I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or burning down villages, If you don't see Christian terrorism (including in the U.S.), its because you aren't paying attention. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
- WillPostForFood 12y ago
  Still upset about the gunpowder plot in 1605? If that page covers the worst of Christian terrorism, it is a vindication. There will always be crazies co-opting ideologies. The problem is you could write a wiki page about 10 times that long on muslim terror acts in the last year.
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    > Still upset about the gunpowder plot in 1605? No, Oklahoma City is quite enough, thank you, as is the continued campaign against gay and trans rights, which is only nonviolent because the violence isn't reported on as part of a coherent campaign.
JonnieCache 12y ago
>You might think that an 18% pregnancy rate (check wikipedia) That's if you don't use them properly. I wonder why that might happen?
EliRivers 12y ago
Isn't bigotry typically defined as an irrational dislike?
iak8god 12y ago
Well, I accidentally kicked off a bit of a storm in this thread. Others have addressed your points in more depth than I care to, and the current leaf comments are wandering close to getting Godwin'd, so it might be time to wind this down. You haven't explained how you got bigotry out of my comment and I wish you would.

WalterBright 12y ago

The trouble is, who gets to be the arbiter of the "truth".

mikerichards 12y ago

Those parents would be telling their children that stuff whether they're home-schooled or not.

hga 12y ago

Let me make a reductionist argument here: Do these people teach their children reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic? If they do, all other defects (as you see them) can be remedied in the future. The simple demonstrable fact that the public schools in the US are often bad if not hopeless (e.g. no phonics) at even those modest goals is enough for me to support even snake handling Pentecostals. Not able to read == no future intellectual life absent, let me put it, a "miracle".

prostoalex 12y ago

But Common Core testing standards would take care of it, seems like?