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It's hard for me to have anything but contempt for this entire proceeding. None of these actions are a crime in a free society. And if they were, there'd be n

by jMyles 12y ago

It's hard for me to have anything but contempt for this entire proceeding. None of these actions are a crime in a free society. And if they were, there'd be no need to dictate what can and can't be introduced as a defense. No "politics?" What garbage. Every line of code that DPR wrote was political. Free Ross.

moyix 12y ago
Are you ignoring the attempt to have several people killed? Even if it seems he was actually getting scammed, it sure looks like he tried to arrange murder for hire.
- mburns 12y ago
  He wasn't on trial for soliciting murder.
  - npizzolato 12y ago
    Well, he is charged with soliciting murder. It just wasn't this trial. > "Ulbricht is charged with a murder-for-hire scheme in a separate case in federal court in Baltimore." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-silk-roads-ulbricht-solicited-six-murders-for-hire https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-s...
- forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
  I'm assuming he was talking about what they charged him with, in the article it states: "Ulbricht didn’t face murder solicitation charges in the trial and prosecutors said they don’t believe any murders were carried out."
- Alupis 12y ago
  Have you read the transcripts of his supposed "murder for hire" discussions? They are with a supposed Hell's Angel, who, right on the first email, opens up about his business dealings, what he does, how he does it, etc. It's waaaaaaaay to open and forthcoming for a hardened and experienced criminal to just flat out say things like: > Also, we have kidnapped friendlychemists partner Xin already and are on the hunt for friendlychemist. > We are all familiar with PGP as we have been using it for years via email linked to our smartphones. It’s the only way we communicate with each other aside from in person, since phone calls are not secure. > After some “questioning” he admitted he was intending on moving to a different country and setting up a new seller account on this site. We don’t take too kindly to thieves. He’s gone. > If you have your mind set on just finding his location, I can talk to them and get them to get it for you for a fee (not sure what amount as usually when we hunt someone, there is more involved after we find them). > I can almost guarantee it, but I stop short of guaranteeing anything unless I am 100% certain I can get the job done. I do that so I don’t look like an idiot if I can’t accomplish something I have said I can. It reads like a novel (or more likely a LE agent baiting him). Would also explain why none of the "victims" were ever really identified, nor any missing persons reports filed. Doesn't excuse what DPR did, just saying this part of the prosecution's story doesn't sit well with me. ~~ Edit: Here's the supposed conversation about the "hits" for reference http://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-boss-ordering-5-assassinations/ http://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-boss...
  - moyix 12y ago
    The prosecution said that they believe this conversation was actually someone scamming him, and that there were in fact no murders carried out. It clearly shows that DPR tried to have people killed, though (unless you think there's wholesale fabrication of evidence going on, which is getting into conspiracy theory land).
    - tedks 12y ago
      What if DPR believed he was being scammed?
      - xorcist 12y ago
        He paid hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin to the assassin after the hit. If he believed he was scammed, he certainly loved it and paid soundly for the privilege. It's all in the cleartext logs of Ulbricht's laptop.
        Alupis 12y ago
        > He paid hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin to the assassin after the hit In total it was $750,000 for 5 "hits".
        tedks 12y ago
        But he had millions of Bitcoin, and every reason to believe that Bitcoin would rise in value. He lived very modestly for what he had, so it's not like this is anything other than a number in a computer fro him. This was discussed in depth on HN when the story first broke -- unless I'm wrong the story goes something like this: S1: I will disclose the silk road's confidential information unless you pay me $500k, because I owe S2 that money. DPR: Let me talk to S2. S2: Hello, this is S2. DPR: I will give you $150k to kill S1. I have paid much less for a hit, so consider yourself lucky to get this deal. S2: Done and done, have a nice day. Paying to "have someone killed" is a good way to give them some money, but not the money they wanted, while still scaring them off.
    - 12y ago
- jMyles 12y ago
  Do you have any evidence that this occurred? Have you ever seen any? The government hasn't provided it. These are out-and-out lies, designed to impugn his public credibility. It seems to have worked with some of the comments in this thread. If you believe that he was the violent psychopath portrayed at the bail proceeding, how do you feel about the government neglecting to charge him with those crimes?
  - aceperry 12y ago
    "how do you feel about the government neglecting to charge him with those crimes?" I understand that the government will try Ulbricht for those crimes. How do you feel about being informed of the facts?
    - jMyles 12y ago
      I'm not pretending the federal charges in Baltimore don't exist - although I do think they're not credible. I asked you about presenting this material during the bail proceeding - and his being denied bail on that basis - without yet having charged him. Does this not outrage you?
      - AnkhMorporkian 12y ago
        That's exactly how bail hearings work. Just because something isn't yet proven in the eyes of the law doesn't mean it shouldn't factor into bail.
      - gamblor956 12y ago
        No, because part of the reason he was denied bail is that he had a relative fortune of several million in Bitcoins, not all of which have been traced, and is thus a serious flight risk given the severity of the charges against him.
      - aceperry 12y ago
        "Does this not outrage you?" It does not outrage me. I'm more outraged, well maybe not outraged but concerned, by your strange and desperate claims of Ulbrict's innocence.
freehunter 12y ago
Hiring a hitman isn't a crime in a free society? Paying people to hack others isn't a crime? Okay.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 12y ago
  He wasn't convicted of hiring a hitman, though.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- jMyles 12y ago
  Everybody is repeating the murder-for-hire nonsense as if it has anything to do with this trial. Show me the evidence that he engaged in that. Why wasn't he charged with that?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
Are you some kind of novelty account? Ross hired hitmen to kill rivals. He personally maintained and profited from an illegal drug trade. Please go back to reddit, thanks.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
  Can we not use "go back to reddit" as some kind of insult?
- sp332 12y ago
  Wrong trial. "Ulbricht is charged with a murder-for-hire scheme in a separate case in federal court in Baltimore." https://www.popehat.com/2013/10/02/the-silk-road-to-federal-prosecution-the-charges-against-ross-ulbricht/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/10/02/the-silk-road-to-federal-... Edit: and I had the wrong link. The quote is from https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-silk-roads-ulbricht-solicited-six-murders-for-hire https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-s...
- jsmthrowaway 12y ago
  Dumber than you, so automatically a Redditor, huh? Considering this is Hacker News with definite faults of its own, that's a very glass house stone of you to throw. In particular, you should compare how HN handles a gender-in-tech thread to certain subreddits' treatment of the same topic. It's almost like Reddit is a grouping of wildly disparate communities with different ideals, some for humor, some serious. How many communities does HN have? Oh, right, one.
krschultz 12y ago
If his defense was 'I ran the site, but I don't believe the site violates the laws I'm charged with violating', you argument would hold some water. That was not his argument. He was basically arguing "I'm not the guy that ran that site". That's is basically admitting, whoever ran that site committed a bunch of crimes. Are you saying that you think running Silk Road didn't constitute "narcotics conspiracy, money laundering conspiracy, and engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise"? Or are you saying that you don't like that those laws prevent running a site like Silk Road?
- jMyles 12y ago
  I do agree that, if he is DPR, he was better defending himself as such and rallying the support he had built from his writings. As for the charges, I'm saying that yes, those are not proper crimes in a free society, and none pass common sense constitutional muster. He didn't violate anyone's rights, defraud anyone, or engage anyone with violence. Who is the victim?
  - aceperry 12y ago
    "He didn't violate anyone's rights, defraud anyone, or engage anyone with violence. Who is the victim?" All of the correspondence about murdering people doesn't look innocent to me.
  - krschultz 12y ago
    Philosophically I agree with you. I wouldn't argue there are no victims, but whatever damage to addicts is caused by making drugs marginally more accessible, I don't think it adds up to 30-life in prison for some guy. Unfortunately there is a huge distance between what libertarian philosophy argues for and what is actually legal. To me, Silk Road is a no-shit-it's-completely-illegal enterprise given the current war on drugs. Plus, it's a major thumb right into the drug enforcers eyes. Not smart if you care about staying out of jail. Should we change the laws? Absolutely. But this guy was not doing anything to change those laws. He was just profiting from the situation because he was willing to take the risk (or dumb enough to take the risk). I don't find him especially sympathetic. If he was out there saying 'I run Silk Road, and we are not responsible for what people are doing on it', or even better 'I run Silk Road, and we are eliminating violence from the drug trade, it's a net benefit to society by eliminating gangs', he would be someone worth defending. It would be a lot harder for the state to come down on him. Maybe some people would rally behind him and demand change because he is right. Instead, I'm just seeing a guy that made a lot of money by violating laws, and wants to dodge the consequences right up until he is thrown in jail.
smackfu 12y ago
Is there anywhere in the world that allows unrestricted drug trade?
- aceperry 12y ago
  Probably places like Somalia and other countries where there is no functioning civil government.
  - FireBeyond 12y ago
    I don't think that's so much "allows" as "is unable to control, effectively or otherwise". Indeed, Somalia (to use that one example) is a fairly heavily Islam state, which has pretty stringent and ardent anti-drug views.
    - aceperry 12y ago
      Afghanistan is also a fairly heavily Islamic state, but it has quite a history of drug production and distribution.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Probably not. Then again, for a long time was there anywhere in the world that didn't practice slavery? Is popularity really the best system to evaluate these laws?
  - res0nat0r 12y ago
    Yes.
ubernostrum 12y ago
This right here is the thing that kind of bugs me. Once upon a time, the notion of civil disobedience was intimately connected to accepting and even welcoming the punishment that came with breaking the unjust law -- after all, if people just walked away untouched from it, how unjust could it be? Only by suffering actual grievous harm at the hands of the law could someone demonstrate that the law was unjust. Now, though, the attitude seems to be "Nope, was just protesting this law I don't like, that means you shouldn't do anything to me". As the saying goes: that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
- jMyles 12y ago
  I guess I don't understand what people who object to this outcome are supposed to do then. It's inappropriate to object to someone facing decades in prison for facilitating consensual transactions between adults? That's all I'm doing.
  - genericuser 12y ago
    People who object to a law should use a martyr as a rallying cry to show people the extent which laws are unjust and convince other people and politicians that the laws should be changed. By making your demand the freeing of someone who may be a martyr but did little to effect actual change in the laws(is not a pivotal leader in the political portion of the movement) you consider unjust, you are not progressing the ideas you believe in. Only trying to undo a single action. If and when the laws are changed to make the bulk of their actions legal, they will likely be freed then either for legal or political reasons.
    - jMyles 12y ago
      > is not a pivotal leader in the political portion of the movement I don't agree that this matters, but if it did, then certainly DPR is a pivotal leader in the "political portion" of the movement. I'm not sure how you can say he's not?
      - 12y ago
johnpowell 12y ago
If it was political his commission would be server cost and not 10% of every transaction.

by jMyles 12y ago

moyix 12y ago

Are you ignoring the attempt to have several people killed? Even if it seems he was actually getting scammed, it sure looks like he tried to arrange murder for hire.

mburns 12y ago
He wasn't on trial for soliciting murder.
- npizzolato 12y ago
  Well, he is charged with soliciting murder. It just wasn't this trial. > "Ulbricht is charged with a murder-for-hire scheme in a separate case in federal court in Baltimore." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-silk-roads-ulbricht-solicited-six-murders-for-hire https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-s...
forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
I'm assuming he was talking about what they charged him with, in the article it states: "Ulbricht didn’t face murder solicitation charges in the trial and prosecutors said they don’t believe any murders were carried out."
Alupis 12y ago
Have you read the transcripts of his supposed "murder for hire" discussions? They are with a supposed Hell's Angel, who, right on the first email, opens up about his business dealings, what he does, how he does it, etc. It's waaaaaaaay to open and forthcoming for a hardened and experienced criminal to just flat out say things like: > Also, we have kidnapped friendlychemists partner Xin already and are on the hunt for friendlychemist. > We are all familiar with PGP as we have been using it for years via email linked to our smartphones. It’s the only way we communicate with each other aside from in person, since phone calls are not secure. > After some “questioning” he admitted he was intending on moving to a different country and setting up a new seller account on this site. We don’t take too kindly to thieves. He’s gone. > If you have your mind set on just finding his location, I can talk to them and get them to get it for you for a fee (not sure what amount as usually when we hunt someone, there is more involved after we find them). > I can almost guarantee it, but I stop short of guaranteeing anything unless I am 100% certain I can get the job done. I do that so I don’t look like an idiot if I can’t accomplish something I have said I can. It reads like a novel (or more likely a LE agent baiting him). Would also explain why none of the "victims" were ever really identified, nor any missing persons reports filed. Doesn't excuse what DPR did, just saying this part of the prosecution's story doesn't sit well with me. ~~ Edit: Here's the supposed conversation about the "hits" for reference http://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-boss-ordering-5-assassinations/ http://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-boss...
- moyix 12y ago
  The prosecution said that they believe this conversation was actually someone scamming him, and that there were in fact no murders carried out. It clearly shows that DPR tried to have people killed, though (unless you think there's wholesale fabrication of evidence going on, which is getting into conspiracy theory land).
  - tedks 12y ago
    What if DPR believed he was being scammed?
    - xorcist 12y ago
      He paid hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin to the assassin after the hit. If he believed he was scammed, he certainly loved it and paid soundly for the privilege. It's all in the cleartext logs of Ulbricht's laptop.
      - Alupis 12y ago
        > He paid hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin to the assassin after the hit In total it was $750,000 for 5 "hits".
      - tedks 12y ago
        But he had millions of Bitcoin, and every reason to believe that Bitcoin would rise in value. He lived very modestly for what he had, so it's not like this is anything other than a number in a computer fro him. This was discussed in depth on HN when the story first broke -- unless I'm wrong the story goes something like this: S1: I will disclose the silk road's confidential information unless you pay me $500k, because I owe S2 that money. DPR: Let me talk to S2. S2: Hello, this is S2. DPR: I will give you $150k to kill S1. I have paid much less for a hit, so consider yourself lucky to get this deal. S2: Done and done, have a nice day. Paying to "have someone killed" is a good way to give them some money, but not the money they wanted, while still scaring them off.
  - 12y ago
jMyles 12y ago
Do you have any evidence that this occurred? Have you ever seen any? The government hasn't provided it. These are out-and-out lies, designed to impugn his public credibility. It seems to have worked with some of the comments in this thread. If you believe that he was the violent psychopath portrayed at the bail proceeding, how do you feel about the government neglecting to charge him with those crimes?
- aceperry 12y ago
  "how do you feel about the government neglecting to charge him with those crimes?" I understand that the government will try Ulbricht for those crimes. How do you feel about being informed of the facts?
  - jMyles 12y ago
    I'm not pretending the federal charges in Baltimore don't exist - although I do think they're not credible. I asked you about presenting this material during the bail proceeding - and his being denied bail on that basis - without yet having charged him. Does this not outrage you?
    - AnkhMorporkian 12y ago
      That's exactly how bail hearings work. Just because something isn't yet proven in the eyes of the law doesn't mean it shouldn't factor into bail.
    - gamblor956 12y ago
      No, because part of the reason he was denied bail is that he had a relative fortune of several million in Bitcoins, not all of which have been traced, and is thus a serious flight risk given the severity of the charges against him.
    - aceperry 12y ago
      "Does this not outrage you?" It does not outrage me. I'm more outraged, well maybe not outraged but concerned, by your strange and desperate claims of Ulbrict's innocence.

freehunter 12y ago

Hiring a hitman isn't a crime in a free society? Paying people to hack others isn't a crime? Okay.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
icebraining 12y ago
He wasn't convicted of hiring a hitman, though.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jMyles 12y ago
Everybody is repeating the murder-for-hire nonsense as if it has anything to do with this trial. Show me the evidence that he engaged in that. Why wasn't he charged with that?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

Are you some kind of novelty account? Ross hired hitmen to kill rivals. He personally maintained and profited from an illegal drug trade. Please go back to reddit, thanks.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
Can we not use "go back to reddit" as some kind of insult?
sp332 12y ago
Wrong trial. "Ulbricht is charged with a murder-for-hire scheme in a separate case in federal court in Baltimore." https://www.popehat.com/2013/10/02/the-silk-road-to-federal-prosecution-the-charges-against-ross-ulbricht/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/10/02/the-silk-road-to-federal-... Edit: and I had the wrong link. The quote is from https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-silk-roads-ulbricht-solicited-six-murders-for-hire https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/us-says-s...
jsmthrowaway 12y ago
Dumber than you, so automatically a Redditor, huh? Considering this is Hacker News with definite faults of its own, that's a very glass house stone of you to throw. In particular, you should compare how HN handles a gender-in-tech thread to certain subreddits' treatment of the same topic. It's almost like Reddit is a grouping of wildly disparate communities with different ideals, some for humor, some serious. How many communities does HN have? Oh, right, one.

krschultz 12y ago

If his defense was 'I ran the site, but I don't believe the site violates the laws I'm charged with violating', you argument would hold some water. That was not his argument. He was basically arguing "I'm not the guy that ran that site". That's is basically admitting, whoever ran that site committed a bunch of crimes. Are you saying that you think running Silk Road didn't constitute "narcotics conspiracy, money laundering conspiracy, and engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise"? Or are you saying that you don't like that those laws prevent running a site like Silk Road?

jMyles 12y ago
I do agree that, if he is DPR, he was better defending himself as such and rallying the support he had built from his writings. As for the charges, I'm saying that yes, those are not proper crimes in a free society, and none pass common sense constitutional muster. He didn't violate anyone's rights, defraud anyone, or engage anyone with violence. Who is the victim?
- aceperry 12y ago
  "He didn't violate anyone's rights, defraud anyone, or engage anyone with violence. Who is the victim?" All of the correspondence about murdering people doesn't look innocent to me.
- krschultz 12y ago
  Philosophically I agree with you. I wouldn't argue there are no victims, but whatever damage to addicts is caused by making drugs marginally more accessible, I don't think it adds up to 30-life in prison for some guy. Unfortunately there is a huge distance between what libertarian philosophy argues for and what is actually legal. To me, Silk Road is a no-shit-it's-completely-illegal enterprise given the current war on drugs. Plus, it's a major thumb right into the drug enforcers eyes. Not smart if you care about staying out of jail. Should we change the laws? Absolutely. But this guy was not doing anything to change those laws. He was just profiting from the situation because he was willing to take the risk (or dumb enough to take the risk). I don't find him especially sympathetic. If he was out there saying 'I run Silk Road, and we are not responsible for what people are doing on it', or even better 'I run Silk Road, and we are eliminating violence from the drug trade, it's a net benefit to society by eliminating gangs', he would be someone worth defending. It would be a lot harder for the state to come down on him. Maybe some people would rally behind him and demand change because he is right. Instead, I'm just seeing a guy that made a lot of money by violating laws, and wants to dodge the consequences right up until he is thrown in jail.

smackfu 12y ago

Is there anywhere in the world that allows unrestricted drug trade?

aceperry 12y ago
Probably places like Somalia and other countries where there is no functioning civil government.
- FireBeyond 12y ago
  I don't think that's so much "allows" as "is unable to control, effectively or otherwise". Indeed, Somalia (to use that one example) is a fairly heavily Islam state, which has pretty stringent and ardent anti-drug views.
  - aceperry 12y ago
    Afghanistan is also a fairly heavily Islamic state, but it has quite a history of drug production and distribution.
icebraining 12y ago
Probably not. Then again, for a long time was there anywhere in the world that didn't practice slavery? Is popularity really the best system to evaluate these laws?
- res0nat0r 12y ago
  Yes.

ubernostrum 12y ago

This right here is the thing that kind of bugs me. Once upon a time, the notion of civil disobedience was intimately connected to accepting and even welcoming the punishment that came with breaking the unjust law -- after all, if people just walked away untouched from it, how unjust could it be? Only by suffering actual grievous harm at the hands of the law could someone demonstrate that the law was unjust. Now, though, the attitude seems to be "Nope, was just protesting this law I don't like, that means you shouldn't do anything to me". As the saying goes: that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

jMyles 12y ago
I guess I don't understand what people who object to this outcome are supposed to do then. It's inappropriate to object to someone facing decades in prison for facilitating consensual transactions between adults? That's all I'm doing.
- genericuser 12y ago
  People who object to a law should use a martyr as a rallying cry to show people the extent which laws are unjust and convince other people and politicians that the laws should be changed. By making your demand the freeing of someone who may be a martyr but did little to effect actual change in the laws(is not a pivotal leader in the political portion of the movement) you consider unjust, you are not progressing the ideas you believe in. Only trying to undo a single action. If and when the laws are changed to make the bulk of their actions legal, they will likely be freed then either for legal or political reasons.
  - jMyles 12y ago
    > is not a pivotal leader in the political portion of the movement I don't agree that this matters, but if it did, then certainly DPR is a pivotal leader in the "political portion" of the movement. I'm not sure how you can say he's not?
    - 12y ago

johnpowell 12y ago

If it was political his commission would be server cost and not 10% of every transaction.