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> Having nearly exhausted nature’s ability to feed the planet, we now need to discover a new food system. Source for this?

wyager 12y ago
It's bullshit, of course. We exceeded "natural" food production capacity (if you take agriculture to be "unnatural") a long time ago. The only hard limits on food production are the amount of energy and carbon/nitrogen/oxygen/etc. we can get our hands on. We are nowhere near these limits. We still have plenty of room for growth left with current popular agricultural technology. If that is exhausted, we have plenty of room for growth through hydroponics, GM, etc.
- DubiousPusher 12y ago
  Yes, the real limit on food production is profitability. Plenty of America's arable land lies fallow or has condos built atop it. I will say however that it seems some of our large food supply sources may be in danger and the economic and human cost of pivoting a food supply chain will be astronomical.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    Only about 3% of the US is urbanized: http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-information-bulletin/eib89.aspx http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-informatio... There is certainly lots of additional land that could be utilized with modern farming practice. Water is probably the bigger problem.
    - ThrustVectoring 12y ago
      There is plenty of water. Fresh water near farmland is the problem. This is fixable by a relatively straightforward application of infrastructure and energy consumption (desalinization and pumping. Hydroponics may be preferable over pumping long distances, but it's still fundamentally an infrastructure and energy problem.)
    - DubiousPusher 12y ago
      The condo comment was kind of a joke. It's a Montanan joke so I probably should've gauged my audience better. My main point, which seems to have been lost here is that the main impediment to increased food production is economic. Whether the economic pressures creating the situation are born out of greed, over-regulation or something else I didn't speculate. The land is there. The water is there. The equipment is procurable as well as the labor. It's a simple factor of motivation. Our semi-free market produces the current amount of food. A more free market would likely (but may not) produce less. A more regulated market could (but may not) produce more.
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        I look forward to a time when micro-machines (chips?) produce proteins, carbohydrates etc from raw materials (air?) Then energy, water and food become one fungible thing. Imagine cutting out the whole supply chain for staples (farming, machinery production, transportation, middlemen, processing, distribution and sales) and turning it into a machine on your kitchen counter that emits rice. Changes the whole game.
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        I didn't understand that it was a joke. There are real people who are concerned we are paving the whole world though, which is a misunderstanding that I like to push back against.
  - Shivetya 12y ago
    a very large portion of America's arable land is the property of the government, mostly Federal. I doubt there is little difference in many Western countries. The limit seems to be the extent at which governments will continue to pay for excess food production. The limit of feeding who is on this planet is purely political, political in that certain nations are ruled by despots who care not for their people and political for the lack of political will for those other nations who will not act to correct it.
    - happyscrappy 12y ago
      >political for the lack of political will for those other nations who will not act to correct it. I think we have had quite enough adventurism, people have to stand up for themselves and what type of future their kids will have.
metaphorm 12y ago
An Essay on the Principle of Population, Thomas Malthus, 1798
- swalsh 12y ago
  I mean in a way, we kind of have been innovating "new food systems" for a pretty long time. By using genetic modifications we've found the ability to make plants immune to pesticides, reducing crops lost to bugs, and we've modified plants to have higher yields, or to travel better. We've also innovated ways to store crops, and to use them differently. The fact that we're even able to have this movement about organic crops is a testament to how far we've come. Of course there's still a very large part of the world that doesn't have the same food security we have. Now most of that could probably be solved by simply taking the things that work here, and using them "over there". But its possible that as the world keeps growing we'll have to keep finding better ways. Of course, even if quantity isn't an issue... we still need to innovate ways to improve quality, or to maintain sustainability. My point is, food is already pretty industrialized, and we probably need to maintain some research to keep it going.

wyager 12y ago

It's bullshit, of course. We exceeded "natural" food production capacity (if you take agriculture to be "unnatural") a long time ago. The only hard limits on food production are the amount of energy and carbon/nitrogen/oxygen/etc. we can get our hands on. We are nowhere near these limits. We still have plenty of room for growth left with current popular agricultural technology. If that is exhausted, we have plenty of room for growth through hydroponics, GM, etc.

DubiousPusher 12y ago
Yes, the real limit on food production is profitability. Plenty of America's arable land lies fallow or has condos built atop it. I will say however that it seems some of our large food supply sources may be in danger and the economic and human cost of pivoting a food supply chain will be astronomical.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  Only about 3% of the US is urbanized: http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-information-bulletin/eib89.aspx http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-informatio... There is certainly lots of additional land that could be utilized with modern farming practice. Water is probably the bigger problem.
  - ThrustVectoring 12y ago
    There is plenty of water. Fresh water near farmland is the problem. This is fixable by a relatively straightforward application of infrastructure and energy consumption (desalinization and pumping. Hydroponics may be preferable over pumping long distances, but it's still fundamentally an infrastructure and energy problem.)
  - DubiousPusher 12y ago
    The condo comment was kind of a joke. It's a Montanan joke so I probably should've gauged my audience better. My main point, which seems to have been lost here is that the main impediment to increased food production is economic. Whether the economic pressures creating the situation are born out of greed, over-regulation or something else I didn't speculate. The land is there. The water is there. The equipment is procurable as well as the labor. It's a simple factor of motivation. Our semi-free market produces the current amount of food. A more free market would likely (but may not) produce less. A more regulated market could (but may not) produce more.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      I look forward to a time when micro-machines (chips?) produce proteins, carbohydrates etc from raw materials (air?) Then energy, water and food become one fungible thing. Imagine cutting out the whole supply chain for staples (farming, machinery production, transportation, middlemen, processing, distribution and sales) and turning it into a machine on your kitchen counter that emits rice. Changes the whole game.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      I didn't understand that it was a joke. There are real people who are concerned we are paving the whole world though, which is a misunderstanding that I like to push back against.
- Shivetya 12y ago
  a very large portion of America's arable land is the property of the government, mostly Federal. I doubt there is little difference in many Western countries. The limit seems to be the extent at which governments will continue to pay for excess food production. The limit of feeding who is on this planet is purely political, political in that certain nations are ruled by despots who care not for their people and political for the lack of political will for those other nations who will not act to correct it.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    >political for the lack of political will for those other nations who will not act to correct it. I think we have had quite enough adventurism, people have to stand up for themselves and what type of future their kids will have.

metaphorm 12y ago

An Essay on the Principle of Population, Thomas Malthus, 1798

swalsh 12y ago
I mean in a way, we kind of have been innovating "new food systems" for a pretty long time. By using genetic modifications we've found the ability to make plants immune to pesticides, reducing crops lost to bugs, and we've modified plants to have higher yields, or to travel better. We've also innovated ways to store crops, and to use them differently. The fact that we're even able to have this movement about organic crops is a testament to how far we've come. Of course there's still a very large part of the world that doesn't have the same food security we have. Now most of that could probably be solved by simply taking the things that work here, and using them "over there". But its possible that as the world keeps growing we'll have to keep finding better ways. Of course, even if quantity isn't an issue... we still need to innovate ways to improve quality, or to maintain sustainability. My point is, food is already pretty industrialized, and we probably need to maintain some research to keep it going.