4 ms·

This is an absolutely valid question, but it also has a flip-side: what obligation does law enforcement have to regulate content that you and I, as open-Interne

This is an absolutely valid question, but it also has a flip-side: what obligation does law enforcement have to regulate content that you and I, as open-Internet believers, agree is unlawful? Shall we allow illegal content in order to err on the side of caution?

shmerl 12y ago
I think reality is already on the heavy surveillance side as known (like this example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A ). So some push should be done in the opposite direction.
- superuser2 12y ago
  Surveillance != censorship, particularly when the surveillance is supposed to be a secret. You can argue that it prompts people to self-censor, or that it actually isn't supposed to be secret, but you can't argue that Room 641A is evidence of censorship. Better examples would be the DMCA, the FBI's seizure of child porn-related domains, the seizure of Silk Road, etc. Those things are actually censorship. Having CC processors cut off Wikileaks was also slightly indirect censorship but still pretty much censorship. We already do these things, and under the 1st amendment, there are very few things that don't fit under "lawful content" so I doubt this would change much.
  - shmerl 12y ago
    > Surveillance != censorship They are close kin. Censorship uses surveillance to find what to censor. That's why it's not accidental that DRM cartels are so into police state mentality. These issues essentially converge. > particularly when the surveillance is supposed to be a secret. What difference does it make if it's a secret or not if it's there? Both are a problem when they are massive. Secret surveillance is even worse, since it makes people think that there is no problem with it. Compare it to obtrusive and non obtrusive DRM. People are easily annoyed by the former, but often are often OK with the later because they don't feel discomfort. So the second is actually much worse.
  - hackuser 12y ago
    > Surveillance != censorship I disagree. People under surveillance self-censor. A recent study showed journalists censoring themselves in response to surveillance (i.e., their communications). Another showed that people's searches on search engines (or maybe just Google) changed after revelations of government surveillance. It's not an accident. It's a well-known phenomenon and a method of intimidation. (Sorry I don't have time to look up the details of those studies.)
  - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
    >Surveillance != censorship Only if we ignore the chilling effect that surveillance has on the First Amendment.
- pekk 12y ago
  The question was about unlawful content. The NSA isn't particularly interested in unlawful content, its surveillance has a goal of intelligence gathering rather than detection of unlawful content. I understand the NSA is associated with all kinds of serious issues, but it doesn't help us figure anything else out when the subject changes to NSA even when it doesn't really apply.
  - shmerl 12y ago
    The point is not about content and NSA, but about surveillance. I.e. it's already here, and tools for it are here as well. I wouldn't see it as a far stretch if all the same tools would be used for all kind of unlawful content hunting. Why should they reinvent the wheel?
    - pekk 12y ago
      The question was whether we should allow unlawful content for the sake of erring on the side of caution. You seem completely unwilling to discuss or take any stance on this issue. You want to talk about surveillance, and you say it's the same thing. It's not the same thing. You aren't discussing the question which was put to you. For example, child porn is an important form of unlawful content that many people do not want to allow. We might decide that the civil liberty issues are so important that we are just going to have to put up with more child porn than we'd have under a more restrictive regime. Or we might not. Either answer would pertain to the question. But end surveillance now, NSA, it's all the same rah-rah doesn't pertain to the question.
      - shmerl 12y ago
        > You seem completely unwilling to discuss or take any stance on this issue. No, the question was, should we accept surveillance as acceptable way to prevent unlawful content. And my answer was that this question is invalid - surveillance is already here, whether you want to accept it or not. If that didn't imply surveillance, what other caution are you talking about then?
    - pekk 12y ago
beaubouchard 12y ago
yes
beaubouchard 12y ago
yes

shmerl 12y ago

I think reality is already on the heavy surveillance side as known (like this example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A ). So some push should be done in the opposite direction.

superuser2 12y ago
Surveillance != censorship, particularly when the surveillance is supposed to be a secret. You can argue that it prompts people to self-censor, or that it actually isn't supposed to be secret, but you can't argue that Room 641A is evidence of censorship. Better examples would be the DMCA, the FBI's seizure of child porn-related domains, the seizure of Silk Road, etc. Those things are actually censorship. Having CC processors cut off Wikileaks was also slightly indirect censorship but still pretty much censorship. We already do these things, and under the 1st amendment, there are very few things that don't fit under "lawful content" so I doubt this would change much.
- shmerl 12y ago
  > Surveillance != censorship They are close kin. Censorship uses surveillance to find what to censor. That's why it's not accidental that DRM cartels are so into police state mentality. These issues essentially converge. > particularly when the surveillance is supposed to be a secret. What difference does it make if it's a secret or not if it's there? Both are a problem when they are massive. Secret surveillance is even worse, since it makes people think that there is no problem with it. Compare it to obtrusive and non obtrusive DRM. People are easily annoyed by the former, but often are often OK with the later because they don't feel discomfort. So the second is actually much worse.
- hackuser 12y ago
  > Surveillance != censorship I disagree. People under surveillance self-censor. A recent study showed journalists censoring themselves in response to surveillance (i.e., their communications). Another showed that people's searches on search engines (or maybe just Google) changed after revelations of government surveillance. It's not an accident. It's a well-known phenomenon and a method of intimidation. (Sorry I don't have time to look up the details of those studies.)
- Lawtonfogle 12y ago
  >Surveillance != censorship Only if we ignore the chilling effect that surveillance has on the First Amendment.
pekk 12y ago
The question was about unlawful content. The NSA isn't particularly interested in unlawful content, its surveillance has a goal of intelligence gathering rather than detection of unlawful content. I understand the NSA is associated with all kinds of serious issues, but it doesn't help us figure anything else out when the subject changes to NSA even when it doesn't really apply.
- shmerl 12y ago
  The point is not about content and NSA, but about surveillance. I.e. it's already here, and tools for it are here as well. I wouldn't see it as a far stretch if all the same tools would be used for all kind of unlawful content hunting. Why should they reinvent the wheel?
  - pekk 12y ago
    The question was whether we should allow unlawful content for the sake of erring on the side of caution. You seem completely unwilling to discuss or take any stance on this issue. You want to talk about surveillance, and you say it's the same thing. It's not the same thing. You aren't discussing the question which was put to you. For example, child porn is an important form of unlawful content that many people do not want to allow. We might decide that the civil liberty issues are so important that we are just going to have to put up with more child porn than we'd have under a more restrictive regime. Or we might not. Either answer would pertain to the question. But end surveillance now, NSA, it's all the same rah-rah doesn't pertain to the question.
    - shmerl 12y ago
      > You seem completely unwilling to discuss or take any stance on this issue. No, the question was, should we accept surveillance as acceptable way to prevent unlawful content. And my answer was that this question is invalid - surveillance is already here, whether you want to accept it or not. If that didn't imply surveillance, what other caution are you talking about then?
  - pekk 12y ago

beaubouchard 12y ago

yes

beaubouchard 12y ago

yes