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After using Laravel 4 for an internal company tool I have a hard time recommending it (sadly, I was hopeful). I found the docs to be uneven in quality/scope, so

After using Laravel 4 for an internal company tool I have a hard time recommending it (sadly, I was hopeful). I found the docs to be uneven in quality/scope, some key features (mostly around the ORM) missing and the 'feel' to be slightly off. It's hard to quantify, but I have used CakePHP, Yii, Rails (0.9 through 4), Django and plenty of home-grown 'frameworks'. From all those the most cohesive and understandable to me was Rails followed by Yii (surprisingly). Maybe it's the docs or structure, but Rails and Yii have a strong opinion and it seems their developers have both CS smarts and industry experience, which shows in the structure and code. I'm sure in time Laravel will mature and improve. Currently it just feels like there's a lot more hype than it merits.

mediascreen 12y ago
Maybe it's a matter of taste? I have worked with Symfony2, Zend Framework, Yii, Kohana and Laravel and find Laravel the most intuitive to work with. I like that you can start using it for very rapid prototyping and refactor into more complicated structures as the application grows.
- gerardnll 12y ago
  Totally agree. I think that Symfony2 is a pain in the ass. Laravel lets you have something working really fast. Then you can improve the code later on.
  - Ronsenshi 12y ago
    I concur. Symfony 2 is incredibly powerful, but at the same time incredibly messy to work with.
  - wesray 12y ago
    Agreed, Symfony2 is great, but I see it being used more in an open source project capacity. Working on it at a company where time frames are key, rapid development is huge. Plus, laravel is far more intuitive and I can ramp up new team members much faster.
  - pan69 12y ago
    That's because Laravel is a website framework and Symfony2 is an application framework.
- debaserab2 12y ago
  I don't see how Laravel lends itself to "rapid prototyping" than any other framework. Sure, Symfony2 or ZF2 has best practices on how to do things, but at the end of the day it's just MVC - you can skip any best practice you want to just get something done. This isn't unique to Laravel.
  - mgkimsal 12y ago
    I think it tends to do with the marketing. Lots of hand-holding walk-through tutorials and help people get "rapid" prototyping with laravel, moreso than the actual code itself. And, to an extent, when you present yourself as being good for "rapid dev", that's what people will associate with the framework. (by comparison, zf has never promoted itself as allowing for rapid development, AFAIK).
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      > by comparison, zf has never promoted itself as allowing for rapid development, AFAIK Well, no, because everyone would laugh at them.
  - mediascreen 12y ago
    It's less verbose than Symfony2 and, being pretty opinionated, requires much less configuration for new applications. Facades, macros and route closures supports rapid prototyping and are pretty easy to replace as needed. Included libraries like Flysystem, Cashier, Elixir and the new cron wrapper also eases rapid development. There are also a few tools around it, like Homestead and Forge, that makes it easy to set something up quickly. It's not like you can't do rapid prototyping with other frameworks, but Laravel, to me, is the first PHP framework that actively supports it while providing a flexible enough structure to grow in.
raziel2p 12y ago
It strikes me as a project that should've been an internal framework, not a public one. Too many things break and change constantly. Rapid release cycles is a good thing for smaller libraries with specific tasks, but I expect a framework to remain largely unchanged (except bugfixes, of course) for longer periods of time. Unless Taylor gives away control of the project, I don't see it happening. It'll keep being a popular framework, though.
- josegonzalez 12y ago
  As a Core developer of CakePHP, I'll tell you that the community at large loves major releases more than they like stability. Something about using the newest toy really gets a lot of people going. We actually have had quite a few developers tell us our framework is dead, despite ongoing development on a new major release and monthly minor/patch releases for the current stable line for 3+ years. I can't comment on Laravel though, as my only experience with it was a negative one. I had a rejected bugfix for which Taylor decided to ignore the PHP documentation I linked to verifying the issue, and several other developers saying they have experienced the issue/would like to see my PR merged in. I think it'll stay a popular PHP framework until the next popular framework comes around (CI => FuelPHP => Laravel).
  - debacle 12y ago
    The vocal community is likely in the realm of 5-10% of the actual active userbase. You should cater to most of your users, not just the bored ones. Your framework is dead because you've continued to prove that you don't understand what PHP 5.3+ is and means. I say that as someone who has been forced to use CakePHP for ~10 years. You've always lagged far behind in the concepts that other frameworks have down pat.
    - josegonzalez 12y ago
      5.4+ Version, which is currently being actively developed (RC2 around the corner): https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/tree/3.0 https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/tree/3.0 And a general list of changes between the current stable and our upcoming release: https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/wiki/3.0-Roadmap https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/wiki/3.0-Roadmap
Ronsenshi 12y ago
What could be those ORM features that you're missing? I've been working with Laravel 4 since before it had documentation when I had to go through all of the code to understand how it works and I know that besides what is described in documentation - there's a number of features that are available, but not listed.
- raziel2p 12y ago
  Joining and querying efficiently on relations is probably the most obvious omission.
  - iN7h33nD 12y ago
    Do you mean these two things? http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#relationships http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#relationships http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#querying-relations http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#querying-relations > EDIT and this for making them effective http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#eager-loading http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#eager-loading
  - Ronsenshi 12y ago
    Never had any problems with Eloquent relations and querying on them. I find them very powerful. Yes, they aren't done in a single query format - which should be a problem since it may be faster just to do two simple queries then one complex. Besides that relations could be eager loaded for when you have number of items in first query and want to load relations to all of them. With eager loading you won't have problems with N + 1 queries.
dubcanada 12y ago
I am going to have to completely disagree with you. I have been using it for several years now and I have nothing but good things to say about it. The ORM is basic yes, but that's the purpose of it. If you want a bigger one do what you do with Symfony and use Doctrine or something more robust.
- kowdermeister 12y ago
  I just tried to two days ago and did a complete project with it. Auth, CRUD, file management, etc. It's an instant love for me. Docs is mostly ok, Google provides instant answers. I'm happy to ditch CodeIgniter for this.
  - xauronx 12y ago
    I spent two days just trying to get the thing installed and gave up. Kept hitting a snag somewhere. Such a bummer because I was excited about using it.
  - porker 12y ago
    CodeIgniter... isn't exactly a high bar to beat.
    - tomcorrigan 12y ago
      In my experience people who love Laravel are typically CI or WP refugees. I am yet to encounter a single person who has switched from Symfony2 or ZF2 to Laravel and liked what they saw.
      - mediascreen 12y ago
        I switched from mostly Symfony2 to mostly Laravel and like it. I doubt there are a lot of people switching from WP though, since WP and Laravel solve two different types of problems.

mediascreen 12y ago

Maybe it's a matter of taste? I have worked with Symfony2, Zend Framework, Yii, Kohana and Laravel and find Laravel the most intuitive to work with. I like that you can start using it for very rapid prototyping and refactor into more complicated structures as the application grows.

gerardnll 12y ago
Totally agree. I think that Symfony2 is a pain in the ass. Laravel lets you have something working really fast. Then you can improve the code later on.
- Ronsenshi 12y ago
  I concur. Symfony 2 is incredibly powerful, but at the same time incredibly messy to work with.
- wesray 12y ago
  Agreed, Symfony2 is great, but I see it being used more in an open source project capacity. Working on it at a company where time frames are key, rapid development is huge. Plus, laravel is far more intuitive and I can ramp up new team members much faster.
- pan69 12y ago
  That's because Laravel is a website framework and Symfony2 is an application framework.
debaserab2 12y ago
I don't see how Laravel lends itself to "rapid prototyping" than any other framework. Sure, Symfony2 or ZF2 has best practices on how to do things, but at the end of the day it's just MVC - you can skip any best practice you want to just get something done. This isn't unique to Laravel.
- mgkimsal 12y ago
  I think it tends to do with the marketing. Lots of hand-holding walk-through tutorials and help people get "rapid" prototyping with laravel, moreso than the actual code itself. And, to an extent, when you present yourself as being good for "rapid dev", that's what people will associate with the framework. (by comparison, zf has never promoted itself as allowing for rapid development, AFAIK).
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    > by comparison, zf has never promoted itself as allowing for rapid development, AFAIK Well, no, because everyone would laugh at them.
- mediascreen 12y ago
  It's less verbose than Symfony2 and, being pretty opinionated, requires much less configuration for new applications. Facades, macros and route closures supports rapid prototyping and are pretty easy to replace as needed. Included libraries like Flysystem, Cashier, Elixir and the new cron wrapper also eases rapid development. There are also a few tools around it, like Homestead and Forge, that makes it easy to set something up quickly. It's not like you can't do rapid prototyping with other frameworks, but Laravel, to me, is the first PHP framework that actively supports it while providing a flexible enough structure to grow in.

raziel2p 12y ago

It strikes me as a project that should've been an internal framework, not a public one. Too many things break and change constantly. Rapid release cycles is a good thing for smaller libraries with specific tasks, but I expect a framework to remain largely unchanged (except bugfixes, of course) for longer periods of time. Unless Taylor gives away control of the project, I don't see it happening. It'll keep being a popular framework, though.

josegonzalez 12y ago
As a Core developer of CakePHP, I'll tell you that the community at large loves major releases more than they like stability. Something about using the newest toy really gets a lot of people going. We actually have had quite a few developers tell us our framework is dead, despite ongoing development on a new major release and monthly minor/patch releases for the current stable line for 3+ years. I can't comment on Laravel though, as my only experience with it was a negative one. I had a rejected bugfix for which Taylor decided to ignore the PHP documentation I linked to verifying the issue, and several other developers saying they have experienced the issue/would like to see my PR merged in. I think it'll stay a popular PHP framework until the next popular framework comes around (CI => FuelPHP => Laravel).
- debacle 12y ago
  The vocal community is likely in the realm of 5-10% of the actual active userbase. You should cater to most of your users, not just the bored ones. Your framework is dead because you've continued to prove that you don't understand what PHP 5.3+ is and means. I say that as someone who has been forced to use CakePHP for ~10 years. You've always lagged far behind in the concepts that other frameworks have down pat.
  - josegonzalez 12y ago
    5.4+ Version, which is currently being actively developed (RC2 around the corner): https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/tree/3.0 https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/tree/3.0 And a general list of changes between the current stable and our upcoming release: https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/wiki/3.0-Roadmap https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/wiki/3.0-Roadmap

Ronsenshi 12y ago

What could be those ORM features that you're missing? I've been working with Laravel 4 since before it had documentation when I had to go through all of the code to understand how it works and I know that besides what is described in documentation - there's a number of features that are available, but not listed.

raziel2p 12y ago
Joining and querying efficiently on relations is probably the most obvious omission.
- iN7h33nD 12y ago
  Do you mean these two things? http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#relationships http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#relationships http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#querying-relations http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#querying-relations > EDIT and this for making them effective http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#eager-loading http://laravel.com/docs/5.0/eloquent#eager-loading
- Ronsenshi 12y ago
  Never had any problems with Eloquent relations and querying on them. I find them very powerful. Yes, they aren't done in a single query format - which should be a problem since it may be faster just to do two simple queries then one complex. Besides that relations could be eager loaded for when you have number of items in first query and want to load relations to all of them. With eager loading you won't have problems with N + 1 queries.

dubcanada 12y ago

I am going to have to completely disagree with you. I have been using it for several years now and I have nothing but good things to say about it. The ORM is basic yes, but that's the purpose of it. If you want a bigger one do what you do with Symfony and use Doctrine or something more robust.

kowdermeister 12y ago
I just tried to two days ago and did a complete project with it. Auth, CRUD, file management, etc. It's an instant love for me. Docs is mostly ok, Google provides instant answers. I'm happy to ditch CodeIgniter for this.
- xauronx 12y ago
  I spent two days just trying to get the thing installed and gave up. Kept hitting a snag somewhere. Such a bummer because I was excited about using it.
- porker 12y ago
  CodeIgniter... isn't exactly a high bar to beat.
  - tomcorrigan 12y ago
    In my experience people who love Laravel are typically CI or WP refugees. I am yet to encounter a single person who has switched from Symfony2 or ZF2 to Laravel and liked what they saw.
    - mediascreen 12y ago
      I switched from mostly Symfony2 to mostly Laravel and like it. I doubt there are a lot of people switching from WP though, since WP and Laravel solve two different types of problems.