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I'm employed as a Software Engineer now but my degree is in ECE. The engineering curriculum at my university (Rutgers) was extremely math intensive. I didn't ta

by vdnkh 12y ago

I'm employed as a Software Engineer now but my degree is in ECE. The engineering curriculum at my university (Rutgers) was extremely math intensive. I didn't take a whole lot of software classes but I'm glad I did take all that math. I think it's dishonest to call yourself a Software Engineer and not have an engineering degree. Semantics, but I earned the title.

toolslive 12y ago
In some countries it's illegal to call yourself an engineer without having an engineering degree. The degree is "protected" by the government and can only be acquired from certified organizations (like universities).
- omegaoaties 12y ago
  Can't stress this enough- in Canada (Ontario specifically) it is a serious fine for anyone caught using the term without being certified by a professional organization.
  - stygiansonic 12y ago
    This is a perfect example of why the term is protected by PEO. I used to think the PEO overreaching in its attempts to protect the term/designation, but I can see why they have taken issue with the term "Software Engineer" being genericized. I applaud the effort to learn the topics of "statistics, probability, and linear algebra", but these would have been relatively fundamental courses in most software/computer/electrical engineering curricula that I've known about, and most definitely a prerequisite to calling oneself an engineer.
  - bluekite2000 12y ago
    what about in the US? Is there such a fine?
    - mcguire 12y ago
      In some states, which regulate such things. I don't know about fines, but if a gang from the IEEE or the ASME catch you wandering around wearing their colors without being a member,.... Don't go near any dark alleys.
  - alanctgardner3 12y ago
    All provinces have a comparable professional organization, all of which are members of Engineers Canada. We have the notion of "self-regulated professions", where the government gives a charter to the professional organization to regulate use of their name, their members, etc. For Americans: it's not comparable to the IEEE, it's comparable to the College of Physicians and Surgeons (also a Canada/UK thing the US doesn't really have). So they're given the same power to penalize people "impersonating engineers" as the royal college can penalize people impersonating doctors.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
engi_nerd 12y ago
I understand where this feeling comes from. You worked hard to earn what is (or what should be) a title with prestige: engineer. I too worked hard to earn degrees in engineering. I try to live up to that title every day, and I'm sure you do, too. But my years of engineering experience have shown me that the title "Engineer" is really more about how you approach problems and what you do to solve them and less about degree credentials. Now, the following example is in the context of electrical engineering on airplanes, not computer programming, but I think it holds true. One of the best people I work with does not have a college degree. But over years of self-study and real world experience, he has taught himself electronics, some computer programming, and enough mathematics to get by. And when there is a technical problem to be solved on one of our airplanes, he will chase after it relentlessly, and smartly, until it is solved. His system designs are clean and well thought through. He has taught me much about designing for real world implementation. Is he not an engineer? He does more than many of my coworkers who are degree holding EEs. I am not afraid to call him an engineer, because he has earned the title in a different way.
- vdnkh 12y ago
  Right, I understand your point. I said in an earlier post that an engineer is one who obtains an engineering degree from a certified university. I realize that it's pedantic and elitist, and there's definitely a part of me who thinks it's idiotic. Because it is. It's a title, who cares right? It doesn't lessen the worth of my degree. I've been trying to come up with valid reasons for why it's important for only people who fit my definition to be called an engineer but I can't think of any. So you're right. However, I still think it's wrong for people who don't exhibit these qualities to call themselves an engineer. If you make sick beats on your macbook, that's great. But don't call yourself a beat mix engineer. Edit: Thought of some reasons It's similar to the "doctor" title. You can be the worlds greatest doctor. Self-taught, you can do everything from intubation to surgery. However, you're still not a doctor. You practice medicine. Why? There's things that you can only learn from someone who is more skilled than you, and who is skilled at teaching. That's what a professor is (simple definition). They are an authority on their topic and are the best place to learn from. They teach things that books don't cover. They have experience. They can tell you when you're wrong, and unlike a book can teach you the most current standards and techniques. Another point is the completeness of education. Your coworker, does he know vector calculus? Linear algebra? The forward-active voltage for a BJT? Maybe. But there's no guarantee he does. A degree from a certified university guarantees that you know the salient points of your field (not always true, but for my argument it is). If you don't have a degree, there's no guarantee. And this knowledge is important.
brational 12y ago
>I think it's dishonest to call yourself a Software Engineer and not have an engineering degree. Definitely semantics. For example, I have a BS/MS in applied math from a good engineering school university. I am a software engineer mainly working with ECEs, physics, and other math guys, who are all "software engineers". I see where you're coming from about being a SW eng without knowing a lot of math - but there are other majors - math/physics/stats etc that will be very math heavy and not "engineering degrees".
- vdnkh 12y ago
  Right, an engineering degree is a guarantee that you know the important points of what it means to be an engineer. Ethics, engineering process, math, etc. When you get an engineering degree from a certified university, you are an engineer. It's a guarantee that (at one point, at least), you possessed the set of skills and knowledge determined by a board of professionals to be necessary for a career of engineering. Other degrees may overlap, but they're not held to the same standards.
  - brational 12y ago
    Since we're playing semantics, >When you get an engineering degree from a certified university, you are an engineer. That's not true. When you get a degree you have an engineering degree. When you get hired and employed as an engineer, you are an engineer. You have an engineering degree and I have a mathematics degree. Our employers hire people for engineer positions and call them such. If I were a professor of math, i could call myself a professor. If I were a mathematician at the NSA, a Mathematician. But my employer calls me an Engineer. The degree does not do that.
    - dsuth 12y ago
      Since we're getting pedantic, once you are employed straight out of uni, you are still not an engineer. You are a graduate, or cadet engineer. Typically its not until you've have several years of experience in an engineering capacity, and have passed your government's regulatory body's requirements, that you are actually an engineer. Usually this involves submitting a number of essays on your work, and then passing an oral review board.

by vdnkh 12y ago

toolslive 12y ago

In some countries it's illegal to call yourself an engineer without having an engineering degree. The degree is "protected" by the government and can only be acquired from certified organizations (like universities).

omegaoaties 12y ago
Can't stress this enough- in Canada (Ontario specifically) it is a serious fine for anyone caught using the term without being certified by a professional organization.
- stygiansonic 12y ago
  This is a perfect example of why the term is protected by PEO. I used to think the PEO overreaching in its attempts to protect the term/designation, but I can see why they have taken issue with the term "Software Engineer" being genericized. I applaud the effort to learn the topics of "statistics, probability, and linear algebra", but these would have been relatively fundamental courses in most software/computer/electrical engineering curricula that I've known about, and most definitely a prerequisite to calling oneself an engineer.
- bluekite2000 12y ago
  what about in the US? Is there such a fine?
  - mcguire 12y ago
    In some states, which regulate such things. I don't know about fines, but if a gang from the IEEE or the ASME catch you wandering around wearing their colors without being a member,.... Don't go near any dark alleys.
- alanctgardner3 12y ago
  All provinces have a comparable professional organization, all of which are members of Engineers Canada. We have the notion of "self-regulated professions", where the government gives a charter to the professional organization to regulate use of their name, their members, etc. For Americans: it's not comparable to the IEEE, it's comparable to the College of Physicians and Surgeons (also a Canada/UK thing the US doesn't really have). So they're given the same power to penalize people "impersonating engineers" as the royal college can penalize people impersonating doctors.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

engi_nerd 12y ago

I understand where this feeling comes from. You worked hard to earn what is (or what should be) a title with prestige: engineer. I too worked hard to earn degrees in engineering. I try to live up to that title every day, and I'm sure you do, too. But my years of engineering experience have shown me that the title "Engineer" is really more about how you approach problems and what you do to solve them and less about degree credentials. Now, the following example is in the context of electrical engineering on airplanes, not computer programming, but I think it holds true. One of the best people I work with does not have a college degree. But over years of self-study and real world experience, he has taught himself electronics, some computer programming, and enough mathematics to get by. And when there is a technical problem to be solved on one of our airplanes, he will chase after it relentlessly, and smartly, until it is solved. His system designs are clean and well thought through. He has taught me much about designing for real world implementation. Is he not an engineer? He does more than many of my coworkers who are degree holding EEs. I am not afraid to call him an engineer, because he has earned the title in a different way.

vdnkh 12y ago
Right, I understand your point. I said in an earlier post that an engineer is one who obtains an engineering degree from a certified university. I realize that it's pedantic and elitist, and there's definitely a part of me who thinks it's idiotic. Because it is. It's a title, who cares right? It doesn't lessen the worth of my degree. I've been trying to come up with valid reasons for why it's important for only people who fit my definition to be called an engineer but I can't think of any. So you're right. However, I still think it's wrong for people who don't exhibit these qualities to call themselves an engineer. If you make sick beats on your macbook, that's great. But don't call yourself a beat mix engineer. Edit: Thought of some reasons It's similar to the "doctor" title. You can be the worlds greatest doctor. Self-taught, you can do everything from intubation to surgery. However, you're still not a doctor. You practice medicine. Why? There's things that you can only learn from someone who is more skilled than you, and who is skilled at teaching. That's what a professor is (simple definition). They are an authority on their topic and are the best place to learn from. They teach things that books don't cover. They have experience. They can tell you when you're wrong, and unlike a book can teach you the most current standards and techniques. Another point is the completeness of education. Your coworker, does he know vector calculus? Linear algebra? The forward-active voltage for a BJT? Maybe. But there's no guarantee he does. A degree from a certified university guarantees that you know the salient points of your field (not always true, but for my argument it is). If you don't have a degree, there's no guarantee. And this knowledge is important.

brational 12y ago

>I think it's dishonest to call yourself a Software Engineer and not have an engineering degree. Definitely semantics. For example, I have a BS/MS in applied math from a good engineering school university. I am a software engineer mainly working with ECEs, physics, and other math guys, who are all "software engineers". I see where you're coming from about being a SW eng without knowing a lot of math - but there are other majors - math/physics/stats etc that will be very math heavy and not "engineering degrees".

vdnkh 12y ago
Right, an engineering degree is a guarantee that you know the important points of what it means to be an engineer. Ethics, engineering process, math, etc. When you get an engineering degree from a certified university, you are an engineer. It's a guarantee that (at one point, at least), you possessed the set of skills and knowledge determined by a board of professionals to be necessary for a career of engineering. Other degrees may overlap, but they're not held to the same standards.
- brational 12y ago
  Since we're playing semantics, >When you get an engineering degree from a certified university, you are an engineer. That's not true. When you get a degree you have an engineering degree. When you get hired and employed as an engineer, you are an engineer. You have an engineering degree and I have a mathematics degree. Our employers hire people for engineer positions and call them such. If I were a professor of math, i could call myself a professor. If I were a mathematician at the NSA, a Mathematician. But my employer calls me an Engineer. The degree does not do that.
  - dsuth 12y ago
    Since we're getting pedantic, once you are employed straight out of uni, you are still not an engineer. You are a graduate, or cadet engineer. Typically its not until you've have several years of experience in an engineering capacity, and have passed your government's regulatory body's requirements, that you are actually an engineer. Usually this involves submitting a number of essays on your work, and then passing an oral review board.