12 ms·

I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturall

I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
atlantic 12y ago
It's not the chemical. It's the dosage, and the way the body knows how to regulate it.
tcfunk 12y ago
> Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from. Even if that's true, our bodies are also great at offloading tasks. If you train your body to think that Testosterone (or anything else, for that matter) will come from external sources, it will stop producing it naturally, and will become worse at regulating it's own T levels.
- sanoli 12y ago
  This. Pro bodybuilders take a bunch of other stuff to regulate what their bodies regulated naturally, before they jacked up their levels with external stuff.
vannevar 12y ago
Don't succumb to the reductionist fallacy. The body is complex, and more than the sum of its parts, including its hormones. It's entirely possible that the process that produces testosterone naturally also has other effects that mitigate the downside of testosterone.
- delecti 12y ago
  It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the healthy living things that drive up T result in a longer lifespan, but I also don't see any conflict in thinking that it would make you live even longer still if not for that higher T.
  - pyre 12y ago
    True, but this: > If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. states that the result of higher T through natural processes is increased risk. It discounts the possibility that there is a net decreased risk due to the processes themselves decreasing risk to the point that it offsets the increased risk due to increased T.
    - ScottBurson 12y ago
      It also overlooks the fact that when you're taking hormone supplements, it's both tempting and very easy to increase your levels above what you would get through natural means.
    - delecti 12y ago
      That quote is from a comment, which was speculation. I'm not sure it has enough support to be used as counter-evidence to what I said.
- kingmanaz 12y ago
  >Don't succumb to the reductionist fallacy. The body is complex, and more than the sum of its parts The above needs to be repeated more often, particularly on HN. Tech culture is overdue for an epistemological yin to its empiricist yang.
  - FreshlyMinted 12y ago
    >Tech culture is overdue for an epistemological yin to its empiricist yang. What a wonderful sentence. I grew glasses reading this.
vadman 12y ago
"The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from" Sometimes it does, or maybe the supplements are not formulated quite right. E.g. I saw this at LessWrong: "turns out that fish oil pills suck, and you’d need to take approximately 9 times as much to have the same effect as eating fish, at which point they’d have dangerous blood thinning effects." Link to the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12848287 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12848287
- rsync 12y ago
  Can you provide a link to the lesswrong discussion where you learned this ? Thanks.
  - blaabjerg 12y ago
    Google to the rescue: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jrt/lifestyle_interventions_to_increase_longevity/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/jrt/lifestyle_interventions_to_incre...
    - dhimes 12y ago
      Interesting article. However, this early sentence did set off my detectors: Mental and physical performance are strongly correlated, meaning maintaining your body will help maintain your mind. Of course, the conclusion is not supported by (only) the correlation.
- threeseed 12y ago
  Even more concerning with supplements is what has been seen in New York. A significant percentage of herbal supplements sold contained large quantities of bulking material and in some cases that was all they contained. Which means everyone out there taking supplements would likely be less healthy than people eating food in a balanced manner.
voidlogic 12y ago
>I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. True- BUT many of those things mentioned to be thought to improve Testosterone above are also known to reduce risks that are associated with Testosterone itself (heart disease, etc). So there may be some net balancing at play here? >Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from. This is true in the immediate, but consuming things your body synthesizes (ex. testosterone, cholesterol) will often reduce the rate at which your body synthesizes it... Your body is a complex system with many feedback loops.
wavegeek 12y ago
There is no evidence T causes prostate cancer. If you have it, T may speed the growth. But that's all. The by far dominant cause of sleep apnea is obesity. In marginal cases or in high doses T can exacerbate it, but it is not the main cause.
nick_urban 12y ago
The naturalistic fallacy is not the idea that "natural things are better". It is a criticism of deriving ethical principals from natural/physical facts.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

atlantic 12y ago

It's not the chemical. It's the dosage, and the way the body knows how to regulate it.

tcfunk 12y ago

> Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from. Even if that's true, our bodies are also great at offloading tasks. If you train your body to think that Testosterone (or anything else, for that matter) will come from external sources, it will stop producing it naturally, and will become worse at regulating it's own T levels.

sanoli 12y ago
This. Pro bodybuilders take a bunch of other stuff to regulate what their bodies regulated naturally, before they jacked up their levels with external stuff.

vannevar 12y ago

Don't succumb to the reductionist fallacy. The body is complex, and more than the sum of its parts, including its hormones. It's entirely possible that the process that produces testosterone naturally also has other effects that mitigate the downside of testosterone.

delecti 12y ago
It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the healthy living things that drive up T result in a longer lifespan, but I also don't see any conflict in thinking that it would make you live even longer still if not for that higher T.
- pyre 12y ago
  True, but this: > If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. states that the result of higher T through natural processes is increased risk. It discounts the possibility that there is a net decreased risk due to the processes themselves decreasing risk to the point that it offsets the increased risk due to increased T.
  - ScottBurson 12y ago
    It also overlooks the fact that when you're taking hormone supplements, it's both tempting and very easy to increase your levels above what you would get through natural means.
  - delecti 12y ago
    That quote is from a comment, which was speculation. I'm not sure it has enough support to be used as counter-evidence to what I said.
kingmanaz 12y ago
>Don't succumb to the reductionist fallacy. The body is complex, and more than the sum of its parts The above needs to be repeated more often, particularly on HN. Tech culture is overdue for an epistemological yin to its empiricist yang.
- FreshlyMinted 12y ago
  >Tech culture is overdue for an epistemological yin to its empiricist yang. What a wonderful sentence. I grew glasses reading this.

vadman 12y ago

"The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from" Sometimes it does, or maybe the supplements are not formulated quite right. E.g. I saw this at LessWrong: "turns out that fish oil pills suck, and you’d need to take approximately 9 times as much to have the same effect as eating fish, at which point they’d have dangerous blood thinning effects." Link to the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12848287 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12848287

rsync 12y ago
Can you provide a link to the lesswrong discussion where you learned this ? Thanks.
- blaabjerg 12y ago
  Google to the rescue: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jrt/lifestyle_interventions_to_increase_longevity/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/jrt/lifestyle_interventions_to_incre...
  - dhimes 12y ago
    Interesting article. However, this early sentence did set off my detectors: Mental and physical performance are strongly correlated, meaning maintaining your body will help maintain your mind. Of course, the conclusion is not supported by (only) the correlation.
threeseed 12y ago
Even more concerning with supplements is what has been seen in New York. A significant percentage of herbal supplements sold contained large quantities of bulking material and in some cases that was all they contained. Which means everyone out there taking supplements would likely be less healthy than people eating food in a balanced manner.

voidlogic 12y ago

>I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. True- BUT many of those things mentioned to be thought to improve Testosterone above are also known to reduce risks that are associated with Testosterone itself (heart disease, etc). So there may be some net balancing at play here? >Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from. This is true in the immediate, but consuming things your body synthesizes (ex. testosterone, cholesterol) will often reduce the rate at which your body synthesizes it... Your body is a complex system with many feedback loops.

wavegeek 12y ago

There is no evidence T causes prostate cancer. If you have it, T may speed the growth. But that's all. The by far dominant cause of sleep apnea is obesity. In marginal cases or in high doses T can exacerbate it, but it is not the main cause.

nick_urban 12y ago

The naturalistic fallacy is not the idea that "natural things are better". It is a criticism of deriving ethical principals from natural/physical facts.