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I agree Java is verbose and old and should rarely be used on new projects. But this thing about smart people makes me cynical. You ever debug a terse Perl pro

I agree Java is verbose and old and should rarely be used on new projects. But this thing about smart people makes me cynical. You ever debug a terse Perl program written by a really "smart" person? What about maintenance? What about the dangers of over engineering? These things should not be overlooked.

TwoBit 17y ago
>> I agree Java is verbose and old and should rarely be used on new projects. People with attitudes like this scare the hell out of me.
- mhansen 17y ago
  Explain please? Java is verbose, but although it is old, age isn't important.
btilly 17y ago
You ever debug a terse Perl program written by a really "smart" person? Actually, yes I have. And I've found it an absolute joy. Oh, line for line it can take more work to understand. (Though often it is set up so that you can ignore most lines.) But compared to what the same code would have been written out in a more "straightforward" and repetitive fashion? However there are a lot of people who THINK they are smart but aren't. Working with their stuff can be a nightmare. The difference is painfully obvious once you dive into the code. If you're experienced in Perl, it is usually obvious at a glance.
- WilliamLP 17y ago
  The problem is that most of the people who think that Java is too constraining are in that very group who think they are smarter than they are. (This is not to say that there aren't people who can be more productive with a language less constraining than Java.) Indeed, most people who think they are smart, aren't, including myself.
  - KirinDave 17y ago
    I suspect that you are "smart", you may just not be "the smartest." Indeed, if you're lucky your intelligence is only average in your peer group. It's very easy to lose sight of where you fit in the larger scheme of things on the great bell curve of humanity. But I assure you, it's almost certain that if you can post to Hacker News you're smarter, richer, luckier than at least a billion people.
  - tayssir 17y ago
    Well, I think lots of people feel smarter with a better programming language. For instance, my ability to come up with better solutions is better when programming with Clojure than with PHP. It's like that saying, that perspective is worth 80 IQ points. (Of course, I don't put any stock in IQ; it's just a saying.) So maybe a more charitable view is that these people (who think Java is too constraining) wish to be smarter than than they currently are. And anyway, who wouldn't get a little frustrated with all the childproofing features in their everyday tools?
Raphael_Amiard 17y ago
"You ever debug a terse Perl program written by a really "smart" person?" If the program is terse beyond readability then the person who wrote it is not smart. Power has actually few things to do with terseness, and more with readability/ expressivity.
- jbooth 17y ago
  Smart != Wise. I used to try to cram more stuff onto a line because I thought it was elegant. Now, depending on the circumstance, sometimes I'll deliberately split up something that I originally wrote as a 1-liner because, at second pass, it looks like it'll be hard to read for the next person. Just having the intermediate variable name makes your code more self-documenting in some situations.

TwoBit 17y ago

>> I agree Java is verbose and old and should rarely be used on new projects. People with attitudes like this scare the hell out of me.

mhansen 17y ago
Explain please? Java is verbose, but although it is old, age isn't important.

btilly 17y ago

You ever debug a terse Perl program written by a really "smart" person? Actually, yes I have. And I've found it an absolute joy. Oh, line for line it can take more work to understand. (Though often it is set up so that you can ignore most lines.) But compared to what the same code would have been written out in a more "straightforward" and repetitive fashion? However there are a lot of people who THINK they are smart but aren't. Working with their stuff can be a nightmare. The difference is painfully obvious once you dive into the code. If you're experienced in Perl, it is usually obvious at a glance.

WilliamLP 17y ago
The problem is that most of the people who think that Java is too constraining are in that very group who think they are smarter than they are. (This is not to say that there aren't people who can be more productive with a language less constraining than Java.) Indeed, most people who think they are smart, aren't, including myself.
- KirinDave 17y ago
  I suspect that you are "smart", you may just not be "the smartest." Indeed, if you're lucky your intelligence is only average in your peer group. It's very easy to lose sight of where you fit in the larger scheme of things on the great bell curve of humanity. But I assure you, it's almost certain that if you can post to Hacker News you're smarter, richer, luckier than at least a billion people.
- tayssir 17y ago
  Well, I think lots of people feel smarter with a better programming language. For instance, my ability to come up with better solutions is better when programming with Clojure than with PHP. It's like that saying, that perspective is worth 80 IQ points. (Of course, I don't put any stock in IQ; it's just a saying.) So maybe a more charitable view is that these people (who think Java is too constraining) wish to be smarter than than they currently are. And anyway, who wouldn't get a little frustrated with all the childproofing features in their everyday tools?

Raphael_Amiard 17y ago

"You ever debug a terse Perl program written by a really "smart" person?" If the program is terse beyond readability then the person who wrote it is not smart. Power has actually few things to do with terseness, and more with readability/ expressivity.

jbooth 17y ago
Smart != Wise. I used to try to cram more stuff onto a line because I thought it was elegant. Now, depending on the circumstance, sometimes I'll deliberately split up something that I originally wrote as a 1-liner because, at second pass, it looks like it'll be hard to read for the next person. Just having the intermediate variable name makes your code more self-documenting in some situations.