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I have some friends who struggled with infertility, went through the whole IVF thing (big medical bills, without success) but ultimately had repeat success with

I have some friends who struggled with infertility, went through the whole IVF thing (big medical bills, without success) but ultimately had repeat success with the help of modern NFP methods such as NaPro and Billings: http://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/ http://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/ http://www.naprotechnology.com/ http://www.naprotechnology.com/

ceejayoz 12y ago
IVF involves all the same hormonal and ovulation monitoring that NFP would, so I'm a bit baffled by the apparent belief that this anecdote is anything other than raw probability in action.
- michaelsbradley 12y ago
  I simply offered the anecdote for consideration. I had three couples in mind. One went through IVF three times, the others two times each. In none of the cases were there successful results, though in all three cases there were significant financial costs. All three couples had a child (two of them more than one, so far) after they began using a modern NFP method to track the female partner's fertility; and the financial costs involved were a tiny fraction of the costs of IVF. The anecdote certainly does not prove IVF does not work, nor was that my intention in relating it. So what is the point? Well, many couples are oblivious to the existence of modern NFP and its effectiveness at helping couples both avoid and achieve pregnancy, without recourse to surgery and/or pharmaceuticals. I simply want/ed to help raise awareness of these methods.
  - jessaustin 12y ago
    ...many couples are oblivious to the existence of modern NFP... Gosh, why wouldn't their fertility doctors have told them about it? b^)
    - tomp 12y ago
      Because they can't charge as much.
      - ceejayoz 12y ago
        That's the same argument made by conspiracy theorists claiming pharmaceutical companies suppress cancer cures, and it's just as bullshit. My infertility treatment involved a cheapest-first approach, and that's entirely standard. We were told about charting cycles for best chances, analyses were done, some drugs were tried, and we were able to get pregnant via IUI for about $300 total. IVF is pretty much the final option, tried after everything else fails.
        tomp 12y ago
        Just because idiots use an argument doesn't mean the argument is stupid. 30 seconds of Googling brings up this article [1] (a secondary source, primary sources are Bloomberg and Washington Post), discussing the impression that doctors are performing/suggesting unnecessary, yet expensive surgeries/treatments. Even if it turns out not to be true (after proper research), it's an argument worth considering in any situation that involves financial incentives not aligned with the desired outcome. [1]: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/unnecessary-surgeries-you-bet-doctors.html http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/unneces...
nsxwolf 12y ago
Uh oh - stealth religious content on HN! Downvote! Downvote! Downvote! Even if it's backed up by legitimate science... The Catholic Church is behind it! Abort! Abort!

ceejayoz 12y ago

IVF involves all the same hormonal and ovulation monitoring that NFP would, so I'm a bit baffled by the apparent belief that this anecdote is anything other than raw probability in action.

michaelsbradley 12y ago
I simply offered the anecdote for consideration. I had three couples in mind. One went through IVF three times, the others two times each. In none of the cases were there successful results, though in all three cases there were significant financial costs. All three couples had a child (two of them more than one, so far) after they began using a modern NFP method to track the female partner's fertility; and the financial costs involved were a tiny fraction of the costs of IVF. The anecdote certainly does not prove IVF does not work, nor was that my intention in relating it. So what is the point? Well, many couples are oblivious to the existence of modern NFP and its effectiveness at helping couples both avoid and achieve pregnancy, without recourse to surgery and/or pharmaceuticals. I simply want/ed to help raise awareness of these methods.
- jessaustin 12y ago
  ...many couples are oblivious to the existence of modern NFP... Gosh, why wouldn't their fertility doctors have told them about it? b^)
  - tomp 12y ago
    Because they can't charge as much.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      That's the same argument made by conspiracy theorists claiming pharmaceutical companies suppress cancer cures, and it's just as bullshit. My infertility treatment involved a cheapest-first approach, and that's entirely standard. We were told about charting cycles for best chances, analyses were done, some drugs were tried, and we were able to get pregnant via IUI for about $300 total. IVF is pretty much the final option, tried after everything else fails.
      - tomp 12y ago
        Just because idiots use an argument doesn't mean the argument is stupid. 30 seconds of Googling brings up this article [1] (a secondary source, primary sources are Bloomberg and Washington Post), discussing the impression that doctors are performing/suggesting unnecessary, yet expensive surgeries/treatments. Even if it turns out not to be true (after proper research), it's an argument worth considering in any situation that involves financial incentives not aligned with the desired outcome. [1]: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/unnecessary-surgeries-you-bet-doctors.html http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/unneces...

nsxwolf 12y ago

Uh oh - stealth religious content on HN! Downvote! Downvote! Downvote! Even if it's backed up by legitimate science... The Catholic Church is behind it! Abort! Abort!