5 ms·

What if companies were scheduled to deliver all shares to the employees and customers over a period of time which was fixed at the time of incorporation?

alextgordon 12y ago
I'm not opposed to it, but the brilliance of the German solution is to notice that full worker control is unnecessary. The workers don't need communism or full cooperatives. You can still have private owners and a profit motive. But the workers have to be equal to the owners, not subordinate.
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  How does this eliminate private ownership or profit motive? This model puts the ownership in the hands of those who execute the business and those who provide it with continuous capital (customers) while over time eliminating the rent-collectors.
gwys 12y ago
There actually was this kind of system in Sweden in the 80s. Of course it was very unpopular with the right and was abolished as soon as they got into power. Since then, like in most of the western world, the productivity gains has to a large extent favored owners rather than employees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_funds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_funds
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  It's interesting that the link describes the critics argument as increasing the power of labo[u]r over the company. Why is it a bad thing for the people who are actually doing the work of the company to have control over the company? Why should labo[u]r be controlled by a third party force (neither labor nor the customers).
  - gwys 12y ago
    People tend to say it's about control, but companies give up control all the time. I think it's mostly because they don't have to. I'm not sure how good a plan it is, but I do think it was visionary. I think the Nordic countries a losing much of their raison d'être by not taking care of their middle/working class.
roel_v 12y ago
Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time? Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  >Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time? Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains. Those who start, design, and execute the business will be gaining the shares over time as they are employees (although, I'm not sure this would still be the right nomenclature) of the business. How about this question, "Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?". >Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place? Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources.
  - roel_v 12y ago
    "Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains" But less, otherwise there would be no reason for the workers to want any part of it. Will the workers pay the investors back if the business goes tits up? "Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?" Because it's his, and there is no reason to require ongoing effort to reap the benefits of something? Does an orchard owner only 'own' the apples from his trees if he has actively watered them? "Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?" "Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources." So Mary down the street owns a hair dressing salon, which she financed with the savings she build up over her 10 years as an employee of another salon (where she, I presume, quit before she got any part of that salon - maybe because she joined too late? Period not yet up? Not sure how all this would work). In the 'plan' you are defending, she would have to give the ownership of that salon to her employees after, I don't know, 10 years? So she has 10 years to make back that investment, plus a certain risk bonus, plus whatever opportunity cost she incurred starting the business. Now I don't know how many balance sheets and profit and loss statements you have seen for businesses like this, but I can tell you that no sane person would ever attempt to do this. I'm not even sure why I'm responding, really.

alextgordon 12y ago

I'm not opposed to it, but the brilliance of the German solution is to notice that full worker control is unnecessary. The workers don't need communism or full cooperatives. You can still have private owners and a profit motive. But the workers have to be equal to the owners, not subordinate.

jsprogrammer 12y ago
How does this eliminate private ownership or profit motive? This model puts the ownership in the hands of those who execute the business and those who provide it with continuous capital (customers) while over time eliminating the rent-collectors.

gwys 12y ago

There actually was this kind of system in Sweden in the 80s. Of course it was very unpopular with the right and was abolished as soon as they got into power. Since then, like in most of the western world, the productivity gains has to a large extent favored owners rather than employees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_funds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_funds

jsprogrammer 12y ago
It's interesting that the link describes the critics argument as increasing the power of labo[u]r over the company. Why is it a bad thing for the people who are actually doing the work of the company to have control over the company? Why should labo[u]r be controlled by a third party force (neither labor nor the customers).
- gwys 12y ago
  People tend to say it's about control, but companies give up control all the time. I think it's mostly because they don't have to. I'm not sure how good a plan it is, but I do think it was visionary. I think the Nordic countries a losing much of their raison d'être by not taking care of their middle/working class.

roel_v 12y ago

Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time? Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?

jsprogrammer 12y ago
>Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time? Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains. Those who start, design, and execute the business will be gaining the shares over time as they are employees (although, I'm not sure this would still be the right nomenclature) of the business. How about this question, "Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?". >Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place? Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources.
- roel_v 12y ago
  "Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains" But less, otherwise there would be no reason for the workers to want any part of it. Will the workers pay the investors back if the business goes tits up? "Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?" Because it's his, and there is no reason to require ongoing effort to reap the benefits of something? Does an orchard owner only 'own' the apples from his trees if he has actively watered them? "Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?" "Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources." So Mary down the street owns a hair dressing salon, which she financed with the savings she build up over her 10 years as an employee of another salon (where she, I presume, quit before she got any part of that salon - maybe because she joined too late? Period not yet up? Not sure how all this would work). In the 'plan' you are defending, she would have to give the ownership of that salon to her employees after, I don't know, 10 years? So she has 10 years to make back that investment, plus a certain risk bonus, plus whatever opportunity cost she incurred starting the business. Now I don't know how many balance sheets and profit and loss statements you have seen for businesses like this, but I can tell you that no sane person would ever attempt to do this. I'm not even sure why I'm responding, really.