6 ms·

Two things I wonder about: 1) Is an outfit like the U.S. Digital Service considering people who don't have undergraduate degrees, but have a consistent track r

by ipsin 12y ago

Two things I wonder about: 1) Is an outfit like the U.S. Digital Service considering people who don't have undergraduate degrees, but have a consistent track record or are a part of established teams? 2) Is the salary roughly comparable with what's available in the private sector? I understand that the government might pay less in return for some of the perks of government work, but how close are they coming these days?

bmelton 12y ago
In regards to 1, I'd be genuinely surprised if they were. The federal government has a dramatically horrific hiring process, in general. Perhaps it is different for this effort in particular, but for reference, I used to work as a contractor for the ATF. The ATF had decided to terminate the contract of my employer, which meant that the contract would be recompeted. While the ATF didn't like my company, they liked a few of the people, and tried to get us on a government employees, either because we were good, or because they thought it would ease the transition. Some of the higher-ups approached me, asked for my resume, and then tailored a job posting from my resume so that they could hire me to keep doing the job I'd been doing for years. After applying though, I was unable to make it past the first level of H.R., who decided that I was unqualified for the job... possibly due to lack of a degree, though no degree was required by the posting, again, as it had been created from my resume. The higher-up attempted to work it through, but I gave up before they did and took another position. I told them that if they got it through, to call me, and I'd be happy to consider it, and received a call a full 18 months later, at which point I'd moved on in both body and spirit. To your point 2, again, I'd be shocked if they were comparable. Private contracting pays generously, but government employees are pay-banded in a rather rigid system. One can eventually make established-startup wages, but rarely without direct reports, as the pay bands demand it. As well, with sequestration and a less and less elastic federal budget, the government benefits are rapidly dwindling. I live and work in the DC area, and job-hopping is still the preferred way to get a raise, though of course government jobs have the strong benefit of being nearly impossible to be fired from. Pay freezes, cut conference budgets and crappy equipment have been the norm for the past decade or so, and with continuing resolution, even unpaid furloughs have become more and more common. Again, I don't have any particular insight to the US Digital Service, but a LOT of experience with government work and contracting, and it's definitely not the panacea it once was, for better or worse.
arjie 12y ago
The last time this showed up, the comments on HN[1] said that you're _capped_ at $155k and have poor pension and benefits. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8165082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8165082
- sdrothrock 12y ago
  > have poor pension and benefits That seems to rule out the major reason to work for the government...
BrandonY 12y ago
I have no expertise here, but here's my understanding: 1) Yes, especially if you've worked for some big name, non-government tech companies. 2) Absolutely not. The salary is MISERABLE compared to what you could get in the private sector. That's the real problem. The government desperately needs world class software engineers, but the private sector can effectively buy them all away. Who would try and fix the busted old immigration system when Facebook or Google will pay you literally four times more money to write way more fun stuff with modern technology, world class perks, and job security that doesn't depend on the next election cycle. Joining these guys is a sacrifice. It's a service to the country. It's work that literally changes and even saves lives, but it's miserable, boring work, with little or no personal reward.
- johngd 12y ago
  Re #1: Correct. Re #2: Unless you are a contractor. I was shocked to learn how much the about-to-retire ~20-30 year guys were making compared to my mid/senior level long-term contractor position was paying.
- ipsin 12y ago
  That's what I was afraid of. The thing is, the government seems to have been happy enough in the past to throw hundreds of millions of dollars to contractors, who could then parcel it out to employees and bank the rest. I'm all for cutting out the middleman in that case, but I think the government needs to determine the price point at which they actually get the talent they need.
  - catherinedevlin 12y ago
    USDS got Alex Gaynor. Freaking Alex Gaynor, l'enfant terrible of the Python universe. They're definitely getting talent.
- nadams 12y ago
  > The salary is MISERABLE compared to what you could get in the private sector. That all depends. Many comp sci students are brainwashed to think that if a salary isn't at least 100k then it's not worth their time. The fact is that it depends on location and cost of living. For example - if you get hired to work for Google in their HQ in CA then you are guaranteed to get at least 100k salary. However, 90% of that will go towards food/rent (you will most likely rent as houses cost up in the millions...) - which making $60k in a smaller suburb area (where housing is in the affordable $50-$200k range) would arguably be the same net income as if you were working at Google. I will say that you will earn more in the private sector - but I wouldn't use miserable to describe government salaries (more like underpaid). When I worked for the man it was defiantly an interesting experience but it was a very relaxed environment/startupy feeling.
joshwa 12y ago
1) I was offered a job with the USDS (well, the VA's in-agency team) and I don't have a degree. 2) The max was 155k, but I couldn't make the finances work to relocate from SF with my family... and 155k wasn't enough to support our family comfortably in DC (even living in northern VA).
- pmorici 12y ago
  It's funny that when people here actually look at the salaries being paid to government employees they find them low yet articles here discussing government spending as it relates to how much public servants get paid is typically met with derision at how "over paid" government employees are. Anyone seriously considering this should also look at living in Baltimore and taking the commuter train into DC cost of living is much lower.
jcurbo 12y ago
The salary schedule for civil servants is available on the Internet: http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2014/general-schedule/ http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-... Most engineering types I've met in the gov't have been in the 10-14 range, depending on seniority. 15's are usually dept heads or the like.

by ipsin 12y ago

bmelton 12y ago

In regards to 1, I'd be genuinely surprised if they were. The federal government has a dramatically horrific hiring process, in general. Perhaps it is different for this effort in particular, but for reference, I used to work as a contractor for the ATF. The ATF had decided to terminate the contract of my employer, which meant that the contract would be recompeted. While the ATF didn't like my company, they liked a few of the people, and tried to get us on a government employees, either because we were good, or because they thought it would ease the transition. Some of the higher-ups approached me, asked for my resume, and then tailored a job posting from my resume so that they could hire me to keep doing the job I'd been doing for years. After applying though, I was unable to make it past the first level of H.R., who decided that I was unqualified for the job... possibly due to lack of a degree, though no degree was required by the posting, again, as it had been created from my resume. The higher-up attempted to work it through, but I gave up before they did and took another position. I told them that if they got it through, to call me, and I'd be happy to consider it, and received a call a full 18 months later, at which point I'd moved on in both body and spirit. To your point 2, again, I'd be shocked if they were comparable. Private contracting pays generously, but government employees are pay-banded in a rather rigid system. One can eventually make established-startup wages, but rarely without direct reports, as the pay bands demand it. As well, with sequestration and a less and less elastic federal budget, the government benefits are rapidly dwindling. I live and work in the DC area, and job-hopping is still the preferred way to get a raise, though of course government jobs have the strong benefit of being nearly impossible to be fired from. Pay freezes, cut conference budgets and crappy equipment have been the norm for the past decade or so, and with continuing resolution, even unpaid furloughs have become more and more common. Again, I don't have any particular insight to the US Digital Service, but a LOT of experience with government work and contracting, and it's definitely not the panacea it once was, for better or worse.

arjie 12y ago

The last time this showed up, the comments on HN[1] said that you're _capped_ at $155k and have poor pension and benefits. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8165082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8165082

sdrothrock 12y ago
> have poor pension and benefits That seems to rule out the major reason to work for the government...

BrandonY 12y ago

I have no expertise here, but here's my understanding: 1) Yes, especially if you've worked for some big name, non-government tech companies. 2) Absolutely not. The salary is MISERABLE compared to what you could get in the private sector. That's the real problem. The government desperately needs world class software engineers, but the private sector can effectively buy them all away. Who would try and fix the busted old immigration system when Facebook or Google will pay you literally four times more money to write way more fun stuff with modern technology, world class perks, and job security that doesn't depend on the next election cycle. Joining these guys is a sacrifice. It's a service to the country. It's work that literally changes and even saves lives, but it's miserable, boring work, with little or no personal reward.

johngd 12y ago
Re #1: Correct. Re #2: Unless you are a contractor. I was shocked to learn how much the about-to-retire ~20-30 year guys were making compared to my mid/senior level long-term contractor position was paying.
ipsin 12y ago
That's what I was afraid of. The thing is, the government seems to have been happy enough in the past to throw hundreds of millions of dollars to contractors, who could then parcel it out to employees and bank the rest. I'm all for cutting out the middleman in that case, but I think the government needs to determine the price point at which they actually get the talent they need.
- catherinedevlin 12y ago
  USDS got Alex Gaynor. Freaking Alex Gaynor, l'enfant terrible of the Python universe. They're definitely getting talent.
nadams 12y ago
> The salary is MISERABLE compared to what you could get in the private sector. That all depends. Many comp sci students are brainwashed to think that if a salary isn't at least 100k then it's not worth their time. The fact is that it depends on location and cost of living. For example - if you get hired to work for Google in their HQ in CA then you are guaranteed to get at least 100k salary. However, 90% of that will go towards food/rent (you will most likely rent as houses cost up in the millions...) - which making $60k in a smaller suburb area (where housing is in the affordable $50-$200k range) would arguably be the same net income as if you were working at Google. I will say that you will earn more in the private sector - but I wouldn't use miserable to describe government salaries (more like underpaid). When I worked for the man it was defiantly an interesting experience but it was a very relaxed environment/startupy feeling.

joshwa 12y ago

1) I was offered a job with the USDS (well, the VA's in-agency team) and I don't have a degree. 2) The max was 155k, but I couldn't make the finances work to relocate from SF with my family... and 155k wasn't enough to support our family comfortably in DC (even living in northern VA).

pmorici 12y ago
It's funny that when people here actually look at the salaries being paid to government employees they find them low yet articles here discussing government spending as it relates to how much public servants get paid is typically met with derision at how "over paid" government employees are. Anyone seriously considering this should also look at living in Baltimore and taking the commuter train into DC cost of living is much lower.

jcurbo 12y ago

The salary schedule for civil servants is available on the Internet: http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2014/general-schedule/ http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-... Most engineering types I've met in the gov't have been in the 10-14 range, depending on seniority. 15's are usually dept heads or the like.