5 ms·

This would allow a truly OSS phone, with no backdoors. Neat! Where do I buy one?

seba_dos1 12y ago
Buy Openmoko Neo Freerunner for a fully free smartphone, or some old Motorola listed on http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/Hardware/Phones http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/Hardware/Phones for a free dumbphone. Keep in mind however that using OsmocomBB based phone on public network without proper permission is illegal. http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/LegalAspects http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/LegalAspects Also, just to state the obvious, OsmocomBB is limited to Calypso, which is limited to 2G.
- voltagex_ 12y ago
  2G is going away here in Australia. I wonder whether there's a 3G target in the far future.
  - seba_dos1 12y ago
    Implementing 3G is more complicated than 2G by an order of magnitude (and OsmocommBB is still far from having their 2G support complete). Plus Calypso is one of the only baseband processors out there that accepts unsigned firmware (which is exactly why it's OsmocomBB's target) and 3G on Calypso is not possible.
    - Zigurd 12y ago
      A major irony is that, in principle, a 4G radio could be made very simple, with all the protocol processing up in the application processor, and sharing code with SIP VoIP and UMA capability in the phone OS. But, as far as I know, no 4G radios are designed that way. Maybe when 3G starts to go away.
      - kristoffer 12y ago
        There are real time requirements on the protocol handling so you can't just send "raw" L1 transport blocks up to the AP.
        Zigurd 12y ago
        I wasn't thinking of pulling the layer 1 up into the AP. But I don't know... do you have such requirements anymore? You have real time requirements for voice calls in 2G/3G hard handover. If you treat everything as if it were a vertical handover, I think you can even wash that requirement out. And you can fudge the perceived voice call continuity.
        kristoffer 12y ago
        You have real time requirements in L2 (MAC) in LTE with e.g. HARQ with 4 ms to provide ack/nack. Might not be so hard to achieve but still real time.
        Zigurd 12y ago
        HARQ is a soft real time requirement, and 4ms is within what you can get in Linux interrupt response. That is, it's not going to force you to do hard real time hacks in your AP. Anyway, the real question is: Can you build a 4G radio you can trust because it does little enough that it can have open firmware and driver and protocol software that takes less than 10 years to write? I think the answer is "Yes. Maybe simpler than 2G." Or at least "Much more likely than with a 3G radio."
cordite 12y ago
Are there actually any open gsm capable chips? I'd expect there to be other transmitted codes for certain functionality which isn't as readily documented but still abuseable.
- seba_dos1 12y ago
  TI Calypso, with OsmocomBB[1]. Haven't you seen the link you're commenting under? :P [1] of course all feature and legal restrictions apply, so don't get too excited about "yay free baseband finally!". It's a amazing research project nevertheless, which together with OpenBSC already gave us incredible insights on GSM security. All hail Harald Welte! \o/
seba_dos1 12y ago
Alternatively you can go the Neo900 route, where the baseband processor is in fact a separate USB module which can be separately turned off - just placed on the same PCB. http://neo900.org/ http://neo900.org/ More about feasibility of a "OSS phone with no backdoors" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahPFCFooBv0&list=PL-s0IumBit8Mofxj0Fn2kH6RB9VtnKS4K https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahPFCFooBv0&list=PL-s0IumBit...
- artificent 12y ago
  Why do people talk about the Neo900 as though it's a real product that exists or can be bought? Has anyone seen any evidence it's anything but vaporware?
  - seba_dos1 12y ago
    Well, I see the work being made on it by myself and already watched similar project (GTA04) reaching its goals. Plus that's me who you can blame personally for any delay with the Neo900 website content or newsletters... ;P (and if you find linked talk hard to listen, you can blame me for that as well ;])
    - artificent 12y ago
      it's been well over a year since the neo900 project was announced, and I've never seen any goldelico project actually ship more than a handful of prototypes. I really hope the neo900 succeeds, but sending money to goldelico is generally a bad bet.
      - seba_dos1 12y ago
        Neo900 has been announced at the moment when all interested parties agreed on "it seems feasible, let's do it". There was no prior investment, the development could start only after raising funds. It simply takes time - especially when organizational burden turned out to be a bit more challenging than initially assumed. All of Goldelico customers who paid for GTA04 already received one long time ago. I don't count latest fundraiser for its new revision[1], since it will be fully refunded if not enough people will preorder to actually produce a new batch. Also, Goldelico is "just" a contractor doing work for Neo900 UG, which is the actual entity running the Neo900 project. But I think we're getting a bit off-topic here. #neo900 on freenode might be a better place for that ;) [1] http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5 http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5
soganess 12y ago
Its weird no one has mentioned this: You can't actually use in the wild, its illegal to! Straight from the Osmocombb site: "Keep in mind however that using OsmocomBB based phone on public network without proper permission is illegal" Another reason why GSM and its offspring(I'm looking at you LTE) blows ugly chunks.
- seba_dos1 12y ago
  Already mentioned it two times here :) You can, however, use the monitor mode without transmitting anything.
- userbinator 12y ago
  All the various unbranded/generic/clone handsets coming out of China are likely illegal to use on any networks too since they haven't been given the certification, but AFAIK they work fine since they adhere to the protocols and would probably pass the certification anyway. I don't know how far along OsmocomBB is, but if it is indistinguishable from a "real" phone as far as the network is concerned, then it'd be a similar scenario. What the networks don't want - and the motivation for the certification - is for some device to misbehave (e.g. emit a continuous transmission) and interfere with the operation of other devices on the network.

Buy Openmoko Neo Freerunner for a fully free smartphone, or some old Motorola listed on http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/Hardware/Phones http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/Hardware/Phones for a free dumbphone. Keep in mind however that using OsmocomBB based phone on public network without proper permission is illegal. http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/LegalAspects http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/LegalAspects Also, just to state the obvious, OsmocomBB is limited to Calypso, which is limited to 2G.

voltagex_ 12y ago
2G is going away here in Australia. I wonder whether there's a 3G target in the far future.
- seba_dos1 12y ago
  Implementing 3G is more complicated than 2G by an order of magnitude (and OsmocommBB is still far from having their 2G support complete). Plus Calypso is one of the only baseband processors out there that accepts unsigned firmware (which is exactly why it's OsmocomBB's target) and 3G on Calypso is not possible.
  - Zigurd 12y ago
    A major irony is that, in principle, a 4G radio could be made very simple, with all the protocol processing up in the application processor, and sharing code with SIP VoIP and UMA capability in the phone OS. But, as far as I know, no 4G radios are designed that way. Maybe when 3G starts to go away.
    - kristoffer 12y ago
      There are real time requirements on the protocol handling so you can't just send "raw" L1 transport blocks up to the AP.
      - Zigurd 12y ago
        I wasn't thinking of pulling the layer 1 up into the AP. But I don't know... do you have such requirements anymore? You have real time requirements for voice calls in 2G/3G hard handover. If you treat everything as if it were a vertical handover, I think you can even wash that requirement out. And you can fudge the perceived voice call continuity.
        kristoffer 12y ago
        You have real time requirements in L2 (MAC) in LTE with e.g. HARQ with 4 ms to provide ack/nack. Might not be so hard to achieve but still real time.
        Zigurd 12y ago
        HARQ is a soft real time requirement, and 4ms is within what you can get in Linux interrupt response. That is, it's not going to force you to do hard real time hacks in your AP. Anyway, the real question is: Can you build a 4G radio you can trust because it does little enough that it can have open firmware and driver and protocol software that takes less than 10 years to write? I think the answer is "Yes. Maybe simpler than 2G." Or at least "Much more likely than with a 3G radio."

cordite 12y ago

Are there actually any open gsm capable chips? I'd expect there to be other transmitted codes for certain functionality which isn't as readily documented but still abuseable.

seba_dos1 12y ago
TI Calypso, with OsmocomBB[1]. Haven't you seen the link you're commenting under? :P [1] of course all feature and legal restrictions apply, so don't get too excited about "yay free baseband finally!". It's a amazing research project nevertheless, which together with OpenBSC already gave us incredible insights on GSM security. All hail Harald Welte! \o/

seba_dos1 12y ago

Alternatively you can go the Neo900 route, where the baseband processor is in fact a separate USB module which can be separately turned off - just placed on the same PCB. http://neo900.org/ http://neo900.org/ More about feasibility of a "OSS phone with no backdoors" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahPFCFooBv0&list=PL-s0IumBit8Mofxj0Fn2kH6RB9VtnKS4K https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahPFCFooBv0&list=PL-s0IumBit...

artificent 12y ago
Why do people talk about the Neo900 as though it's a real product that exists or can be bought? Has anyone seen any evidence it's anything but vaporware?
- seba_dos1 12y ago
  Well, I see the work being made on it by myself and already watched similar project (GTA04) reaching its goals. Plus that's me who you can blame personally for any delay with the Neo900 website content or newsletters... ;P (and if you find linked talk hard to listen, you can blame me for that as well ;])
  - artificent 12y ago
    it's been well over a year since the neo900 project was announced, and I've never seen any goldelico project actually ship more than a handful of prototypes. I really hope the neo900 succeeds, but sending money to goldelico is generally a bad bet.
    - seba_dos1 12y ago
      Neo900 has been announced at the moment when all interested parties agreed on "it seems feasible, let's do it". There was no prior investment, the development could start only after raising funds. It simply takes time - especially when organizational burden turned out to be a bit more challenging than initially assumed. All of Goldelico customers who paid for GTA04 already received one long time ago. I don't count latest fundraiser for its new revision[1], since it will be fully refunded if not enough people will preorder to actually produce a new batch. Also, Goldelico is "just" a contractor doing work for Neo900 UG, which is the actual entity running the Neo900 project. But I think we're getting a bit off-topic here. #neo900 on freenode might be a better place for that ;) [1] http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5 http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5

soganess 12y ago

Its weird no one has mentioned this: You can't actually use in the wild, its illegal to! Straight from the Osmocombb site: "Keep in mind however that using OsmocomBB based phone on public network without proper permission is illegal" Another reason why GSM and its offspring(I'm looking at you LTE) blows ugly chunks.

seba_dos1 12y ago
Already mentioned it two times here :) You can, however, use the monitor mode without transmitting anything.
userbinator 12y ago
All the various unbranded/generic/clone handsets coming out of China are likely illegal to use on any networks too since they haven't been given the certification, but AFAIK they work fine since they adhere to the protocols and would probably pass the certification anyway. I don't know how far along OsmocomBB is, but if it is indistinguishable from a "real" phone as far as the network is concerned, then it'd be a similar scenario. What the networks don't want - and the motivation for the certification - is for some device to misbehave (e.g. emit a continuous transmission) and interfere with the operation of other devices on the network.