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I think the self driving car is a tougher problem to solve than the maps. If uber can buy self driving cars, they can make maps on a city by city basis. If you

by jfoutz 12y ago

I think the self driving car is a tougher problem to solve than the maps. If uber can buy self driving cars, they can make maps on a city by city basis. If you have a pile of money, you can get maps. If you have a pile of money, it's not really clear you can get an autonomous car. I'm the first to shout they're coming - but they aren't here yet.

ericcumbee 12y ago
And you have to get enough of those self driving cars for it to be effective. If uber is buying the cars then they cease to be a driver/car to passenger matching service and become a full on cab company, complete with the liability and maintenance costs that go with owning cars.
- olefoo 12y ago
  And Uber may still wind up on the losing end of a lawsuit about pushing drivers to take on vehicles based on false pretenses ( Uber telling the drivers that there would be enough work to justify them financing a vehicle for Uber usage). Uber's efforts to shed itself of all liability and risk in terms of employees and assets is legendary; but they could still find themselves going up against the IRS on the question of whether drivers are employees or freelancers. Most especially with drivers that they referred to auto-financing. The theory being that having a requirement for a minimum standard of car and providing finance referrals would be similar to requiring "independent contractors" to wear uniforms.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    > Uber telling the drivers that there would be enough work to justify them financing a vehicle for Uber usage It seems incredibly unwise to finance a $20,000 USD vehicle hedging on some third party (of which you have zero control over) to provide enough for you to pay it through.
    - olefoo 12y ago
      Generally, if you tell someone that taking on a debt obligation is a condition of doing business with you and make representations to the effect that they will be able to earn enough to meet that obligation based on their projected earnings from your contractual agreement with them that would be considered an implied contract. If you then manipulate things such that they are effectively unable to meet their obligations because you are jerking them around they are certainly going to be able to find a lawyer who will take their case. Particularly if you were referring them to the auto-dealership and pre-qualifying them for financing.
threeseed 12y ago
Autonomous cars are here: https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/145619/volvo-car-groups-first-self-driving-autopilot-cars-test-on-public-roads-around-gothenburg https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressrele... And you can find examples from almost every car company. They all have projects going back decades looking at autonomous technologies. Some you see today e.g. parallel park assist, crash avoidance, lane/stop sign detection etc.
- jfoutz 12y ago
  I understand what you're saying, and i agree there are a ton in testing. But it's not like i can go to the volvo website and check the box for the "no steering wheel" option at any price. Furthermore if i'm say, WalMart, I can't call up any truck manufacturers and get a self driving option for my next fleet purchases. That's in spite of having a huge infrastructure for supporting and maintaining my trucks. Today, unless your title is "Director of self driving car research" you can't just go take one for a spin. Again, they're coming, they are the future. Uber wouldn't have cleaned out Carnage Mellon robotics department if it didn't still require original research.
  - threeseed 12y ago
    Sure. But the point is that these will be available in the short to medium term by companies with experience in scaling out. A world of difference between someone like Volvo showing something and Google/Uber doing it. Uber could easily approach Volvo but then again there is no competitive advantage to. The car companies are interested in volume sales not building cars to niche specifications.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    There's also a lot of unknowns and serious challenges and difficult problems to solve before driver-less vehicles can become "mainstream". Majority (all?) of the road testing has been on fairly controlled roads with "normal" circumstances, ie. not a blizzard with iced roads, hydroplaning, debris falling in front of the vehicle at speed, etc. Longevity of the vehicle - it's doubtful a driverless vehicle purchased today will still be on the road (and safe!) 10-15 years from now (there's an awful lot of computing and sensors in place, but would a computer that old still perform safely -- ie. would you use your computer from 15 years ago as your daily-use work machine? no - so why trust your life to it?), whereas majority of vehicles on the road today are 10-15+ years old. Sensors are expensive and prone to natural wear, etc. What about sensors frizzing out and providing false-readings? Similar circumstances have destroyed $100 million spacecraft missions, let alone some $20K vehicle that's several years old and neglected by the owner. Even military-grade electronics and sensor arrays are not "fool proof" and totally "failsafe" -- and you know the quality, robustness, redundantness, etc.. of the electronics going into self-driving vehicles are not on par. The moment the first human casualty occurs do to some software/hardware failure, there will be serious ramifications for the self-driving world.

by jfoutz 12y ago

ericcumbee 12y ago

And you have to get enough of those self driving cars for it to be effective. If uber is buying the cars then they cease to be a driver/car to passenger matching service and become a full on cab company, complete with the liability and maintenance costs that go with owning cars.

olefoo 12y ago
And Uber may still wind up on the losing end of a lawsuit about pushing drivers to take on vehicles based on false pretenses ( Uber telling the drivers that there would be enough work to justify them financing a vehicle for Uber usage). Uber's efforts to shed itself of all liability and risk in terms of employees and assets is legendary; but they could still find themselves going up against the IRS on the question of whether drivers are employees or freelancers. Most especially with drivers that they referred to auto-financing. The theory being that having a requirement for a minimum standard of car and providing finance referrals would be similar to requiring "independent contractors" to wear uniforms.
- Alupis 12y ago
  > Uber telling the drivers that there would be enough work to justify them financing a vehicle for Uber usage It seems incredibly unwise to finance a $20,000 USD vehicle hedging on some third party (of which you have zero control over) to provide enough for you to pay it through.
  - olefoo 12y ago
    Generally, if you tell someone that taking on a debt obligation is a condition of doing business with you and make representations to the effect that they will be able to earn enough to meet that obligation based on their projected earnings from your contractual agreement with them that would be considered an implied contract. If you then manipulate things such that they are effectively unable to meet their obligations because you are jerking them around they are certainly going to be able to find a lawyer who will take their case. Particularly if you were referring them to the auto-dealership and pre-qualifying them for financing.

threeseed 12y ago

Autonomous cars are here: https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/145619/volvo-car-groups-first-self-driving-autopilot-cars-test-on-public-roads-around-gothenburg https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressrele... And you can find examples from almost every car company. They all have projects going back decades looking at autonomous technologies. Some you see today e.g. parallel park assist, crash avoidance, lane/stop sign detection etc.

jfoutz 12y ago
I understand what you're saying, and i agree there are a ton in testing. But it's not like i can go to the volvo website and check the box for the "no steering wheel" option at any price. Furthermore if i'm say, WalMart, I can't call up any truck manufacturers and get a self driving option for my next fleet purchases. That's in spite of having a huge infrastructure for supporting and maintaining my trucks. Today, unless your title is "Director of self driving car research" you can't just go take one for a spin. Again, they're coming, they are the future. Uber wouldn't have cleaned out Carnage Mellon robotics department if it didn't still require original research.
- threeseed 12y ago
  Sure. But the point is that these will be available in the short to medium term by companies with experience in scaling out. A world of difference between someone like Volvo showing something and Google/Uber doing it. Uber could easily approach Volvo but then again there is no competitive advantage to. The car companies are interested in volume sales not building cars to niche specifications.
- Alupis 12y ago
  There's also a lot of unknowns and serious challenges and difficult problems to solve before driver-less vehicles can become "mainstream". Majority (all?) of the road testing has been on fairly controlled roads with "normal" circumstances, ie. not a blizzard with iced roads, hydroplaning, debris falling in front of the vehicle at speed, etc. Longevity of the vehicle - it's doubtful a driverless vehicle purchased today will still be on the road (and safe!) 10-15 years from now (there's an awful lot of computing and sensors in place, but would a computer that old still perform safely -- ie. would you use your computer from 15 years ago as your daily-use work machine? no - so why trust your life to it?), whereas majority of vehicles on the road today are 10-15+ years old. Sensors are expensive and prone to natural wear, etc. What about sensors frizzing out and providing false-readings? Similar circumstances have destroyed $100 million spacecraft missions, let alone some $20K vehicle that's several years old and neglected by the owner. Even military-grade electronics and sensor arrays are not "fool proof" and totally "failsafe" -- and you know the quality, robustness, redundantness, etc.. of the electronics going into self-driving vehicles are not on par. The moment the first human casualty occurs do to some software/hardware failure, there will be serious ramifications for the self-driving world.