5 ms·

I'm not dismissing this line of thought, but realize this probably already exists, and has existed for 100+ years. When I graduated college I started out as a

I'm not dismissing this line of thought, but realize this probably already exists, and has existed for 100+ years. When I graduated college I started out as a mechanical engineer, sometimes going down to the factory to work on new design issues. There was a constant source of friction between the 22 year old mechanical engineers and the 50+ year old factory workers. Here are a bunch of skilled guys that have been building the product for 30+ years, and they in essence often have to report to kids half their age right out of college that don't know a thing. There was a pathway up through the factory, but there was no pathway across to engineering without getting a degree. If you were a smart engineer, you realized that these guys had an enormous amount of knowledge - more than you could ever hope to get out of a simple degree - and that they were worth listening to. If you were a cocky, dumb, engineer you ignored their opinion. The solution in the past to this problem has been unions. The startups are moving a bit too fast for the unions to catch up, but in all of these recent 'What happens when everything is Uber?' posts written by engineers the role of unions, politicians, and large masses of affected people seem to be ignored.

blfr 12y ago
Instead of waiting for the unions, startups usually just drop the degree requirement.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Because it suits them at the time. Not because they are egalitarian endeavors hell-bent on human welfare and equality.
  - blfr 12y ago
    Because it makes sense to ditch an inefficient company structure when starting from scratch. Why would the motive matter anyway?
    - sliverstorm 12y ago
      Why would the motive matter anyway? Because we have absolutely no reason to believe they won't change their minds down the road. Which is exactly what usually happens.
      - nevir 12y ago
        Once you have a large enough volume of candidates, not differentiating between the candidates based on a degree is ignoring a useful signal. And once you are sufficiently large, you can probably afford to immediately turn away anyone w/o a degree (or whatever other signals yield high return). Complex systems don't give a shit, and it sadly makes sense.
Animats 12y ago
there was no pathway across to engineering without getting a degree. DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation, makers of the PDP and VAX computer series) once had such a pathway, and electronic technicians could advance to engineering. That wasn't retained after they were acquired by Compaq, then by HP, then downsized.
cbd1984 12y ago
> The solution in the past to this problem has been unions. How? Does a union provide a path from the factory floor to being an engineer without needing a degree, or... what? I honestly don't see how unions would even be relevant here.
- pkaye 12y ago
  Unions allow for a "cocky educated" technician.
- michaelchisari 12y ago
  Unions negotiate for better wages, stable hours, and benefits. Often those benefits include tuition reimbursement, but the other things are just as important for establishing a predictable career path so that factory work can be a step to something else, if you so wish it to be.
  - malandrew 12y ago
    Unions do nothing to contribute to productivity (in the broader economic sense). If anything, they are a hindrance to it. I would rather see a focus on a "union" we already have on the scale of entire states or the entire country called the legislative process. Through it we can argue for basics like guaranteed livable income (so you have the time to better yourself), universal healthcare (so you're not always one accident or sickness from being destitute) and a high quality educational system. A livable income, healthcare and education are the foundation upon which most other opportunities rest.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      > If anything, they are a hindrance to it. Yes, by doing things like get us the 8 hour working day (parts of what is not the AFL-CIO were the largest driver for that, taking decades, and having members die in the process, and leaving us with May 1st as the international day for labour demonstrations as another direct result). Productivity is not a measure of the success of a society.
yourapostasy 12y ago
That dynamic sounds somewhat similar to the NCO-Commissioned officer relationship. The race to put everyone through college promulgated IMHO a concomitant, deplorable attitude shift that the line/floor had little to nothing to offer. You even see glimmers of this in the API sub-thread on this discussion. Once your automation efforts are down to a "game of inches" (see Al Pacino's performance that expounds on that term), iterative feedback from the line/floor saves you a ton of design time.
beejiu 12y ago
I think we also have to recognise that the days of working in the same company for 40 years or until you die are long gone. For many people, career progression is not something that happens within the same organisation, but by moving from one job to another. Perhaps this is just the other side of the same coin -- in order to 'hop the gap' in career progression, you actively have to seek another job on the other side.
- TuringTest 12y ago
  That doesn't solve the problem, it merely changes its name. There has always been the need to match workers to tasks. In stable, large companies this was done with middle managers and human resources departments, which meant that you nominally got to keep the same "job". Remove that, and there's still a need to allocate resources, that now will be filled with things like the API's the article talks about, or "freelance-like" human resources companies. Workers will still keep a stable relation to the APIs they know (as learning a new one takes time and effort). The only thing lost in this name change is the safety network of a legal work contract.
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  Why do we have to recognize that? There's some evidence that Millenials are changing jobs less quickly than previous generations. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/millennials-changing-jobs-less-frequent-rate-prior-generations/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/millennials-changing-job... I think a lot of young-ish folks experienced rapid job changes over the past 15 years, because we lived through the explosive early growth of the Internet. But there's also evidence that that time is over. http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/180431/american-entrepreneurship-dead-alive.aspx http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/180431/american-entrep... The tech industry is consolidating, and there are plenty of huge stable companies to provide long-term careers. I don't see any reason that a young engineer couldn't sign on with Google or Facebook out of college and stay there for 40 years.
stretchwithme 12y ago
The path is not hard to find. Ask the graduates what they did and copy that.
abandonliberty 12y ago
As a process improvement expert, one of the most significant modern breakthroughs was leveraging the intellect and experience of front line employees. This was fundamental in enabling Toyota to go from cheap unreliable Japanese garbage to the biggest most reliable car manufacturer. Reach out to me if you'd like to know more, we can have a chat or I can recommend some reading.

blfr 12y ago

Instead of waiting for the unions, startups usually just drop the degree requirement.

sliverstorm 12y ago
Because it suits them at the time. Not because they are egalitarian endeavors hell-bent on human welfare and equality.
- blfr 12y ago
  Because it makes sense to ditch an inefficient company structure when starting from scratch. Why would the motive matter anyway?
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    Why would the motive matter anyway? Because we have absolutely no reason to believe they won't change their minds down the road. Which is exactly what usually happens.
    - nevir 12y ago
      Once you have a large enough volume of candidates, not differentiating between the candidates based on a degree is ignoring a useful signal. And once you are sufficiently large, you can probably afford to immediately turn away anyone w/o a degree (or whatever other signals yield high return). Complex systems don't give a shit, and it sadly makes sense.

Animats 12y ago

there was no pathway across to engineering without getting a degree. DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation, makers of the PDP and VAX computer series) once had such a pathway, and electronic technicians could advance to engineering. That wasn't retained after they were acquired by Compaq, then by HP, then downsized.

cbd1984 12y ago

> The solution in the past to this problem has been unions. How? Does a union provide a path from the factory floor to being an engineer without needing a degree, or... what? I honestly don't see how unions would even be relevant here.

pkaye 12y ago
Unions allow for a "cocky educated" technician.
michaelchisari 12y ago
Unions negotiate for better wages, stable hours, and benefits. Often those benefits include tuition reimbursement, but the other things are just as important for establishing a predictable career path so that factory work can be a step to something else, if you so wish it to be.
- malandrew 12y ago
  Unions do nothing to contribute to productivity (in the broader economic sense). If anything, they are a hindrance to it. I would rather see a focus on a "union" we already have on the scale of entire states or the entire country called the legislative process. Through it we can argue for basics like guaranteed livable income (so you have the time to better yourself), universal healthcare (so you're not always one accident or sickness from being destitute) and a high quality educational system. A livable income, healthcare and education are the foundation upon which most other opportunities rest.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    > If anything, they are a hindrance to it. Yes, by doing things like get us the 8 hour working day (parts of what is not the AFL-CIO were the largest driver for that, taking decades, and having members die in the process, and leaving us with May 1st as the international day for labour demonstrations as another direct result). Productivity is not a measure of the success of a society.

yourapostasy 12y ago

That dynamic sounds somewhat similar to the NCO-Commissioned officer relationship. The race to put everyone through college promulgated IMHO a concomitant, deplorable attitude shift that the line/floor had little to nothing to offer. You even see glimmers of this in the API sub-thread on this discussion. Once your automation efforts are down to a "game of inches" (see Al Pacino's performance that expounds on that term), iterative feedback from the line/floor saves you a ton of design time.

beejiu 12y ago

I think we also have to recognise that the days of working in the same company for 40 years or until you die are long gone. For many people, career progression is not something that happens within the same organisation, but by moving from one job to another. Perhaps this is just the other side of the same coin -- in order to 'hop the gap' in career progression, you actively have to seek another job on the other side.

TuringTest 12y ago
That doesn't solve the problem, it merely changes its name. There has always been the need to match workers to tasks. In stable, large companies this was done with middle managers and human resources departments, which meant that you nominally got to keep the same "job". Remove that, and there's still a need to allocate resources, that now will be filled with things like the API's the article talks about, or "freelance-like" human resources companies. Workers will still keep a stable relation to the APIs they know (as learning a new one takes time and effort). The only thing lost in this name change is the safety network of a legal work contract.
snowwrestler 12y ago
Why do we have to recognize that? There's some evidence that Millenials are changing jobs less quickly than previous generations. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/millennials-changing-jobs-less-frequent-rate-prior-generations/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/millennials-changing-job... I think a lot of young-ish folks experienced rapid job changes over the past 15 years, because we lived through the explosive early growth of the Internet. But there's also evidence that that time is over. http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/180431/american-entrepreneurship-dead-alive.aspx http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/180431/american-entrep... The tech industry is consolidating, and there are plenty of huge stable companies to provide long-term careers. I don't see any reason that a young engineer couldn't sign on with Google or Facebook out of college and stay there for 40 years.

stretchwithme 12y ago

The path is not hard to find. Ask the graduates what they did and copy that.

abandonliberty 12y ago

As a process improvement expert, one of the most significant modern breakthroughs was leveraging the intellect and experience of front line employees. This was fundamental in enabling Toyota to go from cheap unreliable Japanese garbage to the biggest most reliable car manufacturer. Reach out to me if you'd like to know more, we can have a chat or I can recommend some reading.