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this is a ridiculous comparison. You can't compare water, gas, and electrics to the likes of providing Internet. Gas, electric, water are either on or off. I

this is a ridiculous comparison. You can't compare water, gas, and electrics to the likes of providing Internet. Gas, electric, water are either on or off. Internet connections come with tons of setup pitfalls. A bad DNS can make it appear your Internet is out in one way, while a broken cable inside the house can make it look broken another way and a virus on a computer is another. It's just not a simple check and you're not going to find people to fix your internet with a proverbial wrench. When is the last time your water pipe had a virus? It will often taken digging into the problem with a fair bit of domain knowledge. And if Obama care (healthcare.gov) is any indication of the US Government's ability to manage or enact such things, I'd be worried too. Every time this topic comes up, people like to try and compare it to the utilities services and you just can't.

nemo 12y ago
The power grid is not simple. It's a highly complex system that requires constant monitoring and adjustment by power companies to ensure consistent delivery that's not much different than what an ISP should be doing. A bad circuit breaker or wiring issues can make it look like problems that someone might blame on the grid, there are user-side config issues there too. "And if Obama care (healthcare.gov) is any indication of the US Government's ability to manage or enact such things, I'd be worried too." It would still be the ISPs responsibility to manage their issues, there's no isp.gov planned.
Terr_ 12y ago
"It's not a utility unless you can clearly assign blame for all possible outages"? Fuck no! My appliances' fuses might burn out, my home breakers might be tripped, and my neighbor might dig into a powerline, but electricity is still "a utility". It's a style of business relationship, with the regulatory, legal, and social expectations that come with it. The technology (and failure modes) are secondary at best.
emcrazyone 12y ago
I can except down votes; I just know it's folks who don't know how an ISP works - sort of a personal indicator of how ill informed a lot of people are on how things really work. I actually own two companies. One is an ISP and the other is a PCO (Private Cable Operator) where I provide Internet over DOCSIS along with CableTV. I also have had experience dealing with right of way like utilities for putting fiber in the ground, and public WIFI. I promise you my support costs per man-hour are much higher than your electric company or water utility; not to mention a homeowner can do most troubleshooting their self. Any schmuck can flick a breaker and turn a wrench and at a minimum it can be explained over the phone what to look for or what to smell for. but it's not so easy when you need to understand tools like Cisco routers, BGP filters, DNS (nslookup) outputs, some dude has a virus or, worst, a torrent... NAT, DNAT setup on some brain dead Linksys routers, the list goes on. Supplying Internet to people is an endless battle of convincing them, at times, it's their machine. You just don't have this with utilities that are either on/off, flowing or not. Rolling a truck to investigate, I just don't find as many skilled IT people as you do plumbers and electricians and it cost more to train IT people too. We have one property that is Section-8 housing (don't ask). We supply them CableTV along with Internet. Learned the hardware this was a mistake. You have the I know it all type who will yell at my techs. even has his own cable modem running Linux, you have the crybaby type who complains her internet is too slow and pleads for us to come fix her computer, then you have the old people who don't know how to turn on a computer. These issues don't exist with utility companies. You don't have to educate end users about how water flows through a pipe, or how to flip a circuit breaker... See with utilities, it's not that hard to figure out what the customer is complaining about REALLY. With IT/Internet, you have things that can become problems for other people. Someone running a torrent in apartment 1B, for example, can cause someone in apartment 1A to call and say the Internet is out. Of course we have ways to track this, but the equipment is expensive and it cost considerably more to teach someone how to configure a Cisco router for traffic profiling, how to look at SNMP reports, MPLS bandwidth reports, etc... Please tell me how gas, electric, or even water has a challenge nearly as close or as costly on a per/person basis?
- nemo 12y ago
  The real answer is that you're assuming the wrong thing. Yes, networks are complex and require skilled techs to keep running, but that's completely irrelevant to the F.C.C. classifying Internet access under Title II. ISPs will not have any notable new burdens regarding customer service/support/troubleshooting, but will have restrictions on being permitted to engage in a few predatory practices.
- unprepare 12y ago
  >even has his own cable modem running Linux, you have the crybaby type who complains her internet is too slow and pleads for us to come fix her computer, then you have the old people who don't know how to turn on a computer. I've dealt extensivley with at least 7 ISPs in the US, and not a single one would even consider helping even a business customer troubleshoot their own equipment. If you are supporting peoples privately owned equipment you are going WAY above and beyond what any service provider i have dealt with in the US is willing to do.
spellboots 12y ago
> When is the last time your water pipe had a virus? "From 2005-2006, 20% of US outbreaks of virus and bacteria in water were caused by old, dirty pipes" http://www.premierwatermn.com/water-quality/water-contaminants/bacteria-virus-and-microorganisms-in-water/ http://www.premierwatermn.com/water-quality/water-contaminan...
unprepare 12y ago
All of your examples have direct parallels >A bad DNS can make it appear your Internet is out in one way broken wire in the power system between your house and the pole (is your neighbor digging?) >while a broken cable inside the house can make it look broken another way i think thats pretty direct. a broken wire in your house makes it seem like the power is out. >a virus on a computer is another I could have a device flipping my circuit breaker, or corrosion on wires. My faucet could have any number of bacteria. >When is the last time your water pipe had a virus http://www.fair-safety.com/fair-outbreaks/view/county-fair-washington-county-new-york/ http://www.fair-safety.com/fair-outbreaks/view/county-fair-w... 1999 >It will often taken digging into the problem with a fair bit of domain knowledge like electricians and plumbers?

nemo 12y ago

The power grid is not simple. It's a highly complex system that requires constant monitoring and adjustment by power companies to ensure consistent delivery that's not much different than what an ISP should be doing. A bad circuit breaker or wiring issues can make it look like problems that someone might blame on the grid, there are user-side config issues there too. "And if Obama care (healthcare.gov) is any indication of the US Government's ability to manage or enact such things, I'd be worried too." It would still be the ISPs responsibility to manage their issues, there's no isp.gov planned.

Terr_ 12y ago

"It's not a utility unless you can clearly assign blame for all possible outages"? Fuck no! My appliances' fuses might burn out, my home breakers might be tripped, and my neighbor might dig into a powerline, but electricity is still "a utility". It's a style of business relationship, with the regulatory, legal, and social expectations that come with it. The technology (and failure modes) are secondary at best.

emcrazyone 12y ago

I can except down votes; I just know it's folks who don't know how an ISP works - sort of a personal indicator of how ill informed a lot of people are on how things really work. I actually own two companies. One is an ISP and the other is a PCO (Private Cable Operator) where I provide Internet over DOCSIS along with CableTV. I also have had experience dealing with right of way like utilities for putting fiber in the ground, and public WIFI. I promise you my support costs per man-hour are much higher than your electric company or water utility; not to mention a homeowner can do most troubleshooting their self. Any schmuck can flick a breaker and turn a wrench and at a minimum it can be explained over the phone what to look for or what to smell for. but it's not so easy when you need to understand tools like Cisco routers, BGP filters, DNS (nslookup) outputs, some dude has a virus or, worst, a torrent... NAT, DNAT setup on some brain dead Linksys routers, the list goes on. Supplying Internet to people is an endless battle of convincing them, at times, it's their machine. You just don't have this with utilities that are either on/off, flowing or not. Rolling a truck to investigate, I just don't find as many skilled IT people as you do plumbers and electricians and it cost more to train IT people too. We have one property that is Section-8 housing (don't ask). We supply them CableTV along with Internet. Learned the hardware this was a mistake. You have the I know it all type who will yell at my techs. even has his own cable modem running Linux, you have the crybaby type who complains her internet is too slow and pleads for us to come fix her computer, then you have the old people who don't know how to turn on a computer. These issues don't exist with utility companies. You don't have to educate end users about how water flows through a pipe, or how to flip a circuit breaker... See with utilities, it's not that hard to figure out what the customer is complaining about REALLY. With IT/Internet, you have things that can become problems for other people. Someone running a torrent in apartment 1B, for example, can cause someone in apartment 1A to call and say the Internet is out. Of course we have ways to track this, but the equipment is expensive and it cost considerably more to teach someone how to configure a Cisco router for traffic profiling, how to look at SNMP reports, MPLS bandwidth reports, etc... Please tell me how gas, electric, or even water has a challenge nearly as close or as costly on a per/person basis?

nemo 12y ago
The real answer is that you're assuming the wrong thing. Yes, networks are complex and require skilled techs to keep running, but that's completely irrelevant to the F.C.C. classifying Internet access under Title II. ISPs will not have any notable new burdens regarding customer service/support/troubleshooting, but will have restrictions on being permitted to engage in a few predatory practices.
unprepare 12y ago
>even has his own cable modem running Linux, you have the crybaby type who complains her internet is too slow and pleads for us to come fix her computer, then you have the old people who don't know how to turn on a computer. I've dealt extensivley with at least 7 ISPs in the US, and not a single one would even consider helping even a business customer troubleshoot their own equipment. If you are supporting peoples privately owned equipment you are going WAY above and beyond what any service provider i have dealt with in the US is willing to do.

spellboots 12y ago

> When is the last time your water pipe had a virus? "From 2005-2006, 20% of US outbreaks of virus and bacteria in water were caused by old, dirty pipes" http://www.premierwatermn.com/water-quality/water-contaminants/bacteria-virus-and-microorganisms-in-water/ http://www.premierwatermn.com/water-quality/water-contaminan...

unprepare 12y ago

All of your examples have direct parallels >A bad DNS can make it appear your Internet is out in one way broken wire in the power system between your house and the pole (is your neighbor digging?) >while a broken cable inside the house can make it look broken another way i think thats pretty direct. a broken wire in your house makes it seem like the power is out. >a virus on a computer is another I could have a device flipping my circuit breaker, or corrosion on wires. My faucet could have any number of bacteria. >When is the last time your water pipe had a virus http://www.fair-safety.com/fair-outbreaks/view/county-fair-washington-county-new-york/ http://www.fair-safety.com/fair-outbreaks/view/county-fair-w... 1999 >It will often taken digging into the problem with a fair bit of domain knowledge like electricians and plumbers?