7 ms·

This is a real problem. Someone took two laptops from the Mercedes of a colleague recently. They just hacked into the car, no physical damage. According to the

by rdeboo 12y ago

This is a real problem. Someone took two laptops from the Mercedes of a colleague recently. They just hacked into the car, no physical damage. According to the garage this is a known problem and not much was done about it. On the one hand, I trust old fashioned locks more. On the other hand, breaking into a car is easy anyhow (just smash a window). At least, there's no physical damage done to the car in this way (which often exceeds the costs of the lost goods). So perhaps it's not so bad. Just never leave valuables in your car.

jsaxton86 12y ago
3D printing will make old locks obsolete.
- hawkice 12y ago
  I lost my apartment keys and picked my way into my apartment for about 7 months. I don't see 3D printing having a lot to do with that. Even if I had a printer I'd need some fancy scanning equipment to figure out how to make the key.
  - Ntrails 12y ago
    I believe that by carrying lock picks you were breaking the law right? Unless it is your trade of course.
    - teraflop 12y ago
      In the US, the details vary by state but in general you don't need any kind of license to possess or use lockpicks (except in Tennessee): http://toool.us/laws.html http://toool.us/laws.html
  - teraflop 12y ago
    Random tangent: I recently had two copies of a key made, and noticed that the guy at the duplicating machine was able to remove the original after "scanning" it to make the first copy. Seems obvious in retrospect, but I hadn't realized that nowadays those machines had memory like photocopiers, instead of just being purely mechanical. With that in mind, seems like it should be possible for someone to scan a key, save the pattern, and be able to use it later on to cut new keys on-demand. Does a service like this exist?
    - tormeh 12y ago
      That's downright terrifying.
    - kw71 12y ago
      This is possible with the RFID transponders used in ignition keys by most carmakers. However, BMW had the foresight to prevent this. Maybe the downmarket carmakers have gotten smarter, but for a long time BMW stood out as the one that did not permit simple duplication of the data in the RFID transponders (each transponder has its data changed every time it is used.) As far as mechanical key bittings go, any locksmith should be able to clone a key with a photograph of it.
      - kxo 12y ago
        TOTP and HOTP have been standards for how long now? (HMAC has been in papers since 1997 or earlier, HOTP since 2005) We have 2FA devices like the Yubikey (https://www.yubico.com/prodcts/yubikey-hardware/ https://www.yubico.com/prodcts/yubikey-hardware/) that are so incredibly small. Why is this not something you'd implement via RFID challenge/response to stop any attack?
        kw71 12y ago
        I was puzzled by this too, and surprised at how simple it was. Remember during the 90's we had ISO7816 cards that were a lot more difficult to attack (for instance, payphone cards permuted a challenge from the phone with a shared secret and a secret algorithm, and additionally had some good anti-reading protection, and an irreversible counter) As far as I know all the technology able to fit in a 7816 card has been put into contactless cards too. I think that carmakers are lazy, they go to a vendor who designs a system with off the shelf parts and implements it poorly, and we end up with our $30,000 car secured by a PCF7930 or something weaker and if it has security features they are not fully utilized. I think they also have to design these things within the constraints of being able to service them in the field and not upsetting the customer. Vendor doesn't want to be responsible for a bunch of cars not working if reliability is low, and carmakers wouldn't want the bad press. On the other hand, when criminal activity is involved, it's real easy to blame the criminal.
  - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
    >Even if I had a printer I'd need some fancy scanning equipment to figure out how to make the key. Keys have been reproduced from a single photo before. It seems to always involve someone who has experience making keys using the photo to reproduce the key, but in theory software could be able to automate this for the easier cases.
    - hawkice 12y ago
      If I have a key or picture of a key, yes. If I have access to just the lock, I can't figure out how to do this without some odd equipment. And if the 3d printer + just the lock can't do something new, then how do 3d printers make traditional locks obsolete?

by rdeboo 12y ago

jsaxton86 12y ago

3D printing will make old locks obsolete.

hawkice 12y ago
I lost my apartment keys and picked my way into my apartment for about 7 months. I don't see 3D printing having a lot to do with that. Even if I had a printer I'd need some fancy scanning equipment to figure out how to make the key.
- Ntrails 12y ago
  I believe that by carrying lock picks you were breaking the law right? Unless it is your trade of course.
  - teraflop 12y ago
    In the US, the details vary by state but in general you don't need any kind of license to possess or use lockpicks (except in Tennessee): http://toool.us/laws.html http://toool.us/laws.html
- teraflop 12y ago
  Random tangent: I recently had two copies of a key made, and noticed that the guy at the duplicating machine was able to remove the original after "scanning" it to make the first copy. Seems obvious in retrospect, but I hadn't realized that nowadays those machines had memory like photocopiers, instead of just being purely mechanical. With that in mind, seems like it should be possible for someone to scan a key, save the pattern, and be able to use it later on to cut new keys on-demand. Does a service like this exist?
  - tormeh 12y ago
    That's downright terrifying.
  - kw71 12y ago
    This is possible with the RFID transponders used in ignition keys by most carmakers. However, BMW had the foresight to prevent this. Maybe the downmarket carmakers have gotten smarter, but for a long time BMW stood out as the one that did not permit simple duplication of the data in the RFID transponders (each transponder has its data changed every time it is used.) As far as mechanical key bittings go, any locksmith should be able to clone a key with a photograph of it.
    - kxo 12y ago
      TOTP and HOTP have been standards for how long now? (HMAC has been in papers since 1997 or earlier, HOTP since 2005) We have 2FA devices like the Yubikey (https://www.yubico.com/prodcts/yubikey-hardware/ https://www.yubico.com/prodcts/yubikey-hardware/) that are so incredibly small. Why is this not something you'd implement via RFID challenge/response to stop any attack?
      - kw71 12y ago
        I was puzzled by this too, and surprised at how simple it was. Remember during the 90's we had ISO7816 cards that were a lot more difficult to attack (for instance, payphone cards permuted a challenge from the phone with a shared secret and a secret algorithm, and additionally had some good anti-reading protection, and an irreversible counter) As far as I know all the technology able to fit in a 7816 card has been put into contactless cards too. I think that carmakers are lazy, they go to a vendor who designs a system with off the shelf parts and implements it poorly, and we end up with our $30,000 car secured by a PCF7930 or something weaker and if it has security features they are not fully utilized. I think they also have to design these things within the constraints of being able to service them in the field and not upsetting the customer. Vendor doesn't want to be responsible for a bunch of cars not working if reliability is low, and carmakers wouldn't want the bad press. On the other hand, when criminal activity is involved, it's real easy to blame the criminal.
- Lawtonfogle 12y ago
  >Even if I had a printer I'd need some fancy scanning equipment to figure out how to make the key. Keys have been reproduced from a single photo before. It seems to always involve someone who has experience making keys using the photo to reproduce the key, but in theory software could be able to automate this for the easier cases.
  - hawkice 12y ago
    If I have a key or picture of a key, yes. If I have access to just the lock, I can't figure out how to do this without some odd equipment. And if the 3d printer + just the lock can't do something new, then how do 3d printers make traditional locks obsolete?