17 ms·

Herculaneum scrolls unlocked using photon beams

68 points by diodorus 12y ago

morehatsthantf2 12y ago
Man I wish they told me what they said.
- nonnatus 12y ago
  Exactly! I was hoping to at least hear what those two words were, no matter how insignificant.
troymc 12y ago
Here's the paper in Nature Communications: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150120/ncomms6895/full/ncomms6895.html http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150120/ncomms6895/full/nco... "Revealing letters in rolled Herculaneum papyri by X-ray phase-contrast imaging" It's bizarre that BBC calls X-rays "photon beams," like something out of Star Trek. Maybe using X-rays to read rolled-up scrolls doesn't sound so amazing? (The details of how they did it are amazing; this is not your grandpa's X-ray imaging system.)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Tarang 12y ago
  To be fair, X-Rays are photons, maybe its about the fine-grainness of the technique since they're not X-Raying it but looking for other minuscule changes
- big_al337 12y ago
  I think they were just trying the emphasize the giant scale of the operation. I feel like the average reader would associate x-rays with the machines found at hospitals. The synchrotron, of course, is a vastly different machine.
- gone35 12y ago
  Well; as you point out, X-ray phase-contrast tomography and conventional X-ray photography are (nearly) totally different things, so their phrasing seems justifiable to me, if only on editorial grounds --think "the full name of the technique is too long, would cause viewers to get mixed up with conventional X-ray imaging, etc.". Quibbles aside though, it's hard to overstate how significant this finding is: not only this is (apparently) the only extant library left from classical antiquity, but also these are freaking charred scrolls from a volcanic eruption that were considered beyond repair! I found ScienceDaily's article much more informative in this regard: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150122114405.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150122114405.ht...
  - toyg 12y ago
    > it's hard to overstate how significant this finding is Let's not get too excited here, it's not like they've magically retrieved all texts; they've retrieved small fragments from a handful of scrolls and the process involved some luck and guesswork, not just software. For the technique itself to work, the scroll has to be slightly bumpy, and not all of them are like that. It's a great step forward, but still, it will likely take decades to retrieve significant portions of text from a small number of scrolls -- and this assuming efforts will always be fully funded (Italy has a lot of old stuff to look after, and they're not exactly swimming in cash right now -- they're even thinking of re-burying several large archeological sites because they simply cannot protect them at this time).
phreeza 12y ago
'photon beams' seams like an unnecessarily complicated way of saying x-ray?
- nashashmi 12y ago
  clickbait!
- skywhopper 12y ago
  Yes. At first I thought it was a joke article, wherein someone had the brilliant idea of turning on a light in order to see a scroll previously unreadable because it was hidden in a dark cave. "How did you manage to read the scroll?" "Photon beams!" "Whoaaaa"
  - aswanson 12y ago
    I thought the same thing, a joke. Then I read it as 'proton beam' for a few milliseconds...the brain does funny things when it's trying to make sense of something.
  - CmonDev 12y ago
    Thanks for making me chuckle today.
- simonh 12y ago
  I thought they meant some kind of visible light laser and wondered why they didn't just say 'light beams'. After all, visible light is the most familiar form of photon to most people.
- adamtj 12y ago
  How about this: "Scientists couldn't see what was written on the scrolls until they turned on some lights." The connotation behind "photon beams" more accurately conveys the accomplishment than the roughly synonymous "turning on some lights".
- cma 12y ago
  Think the plural on beams refers to the beam splitting going on in phase-contrast x-ray imaging http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-contrast_X-ray_imaging http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-contrast_X-ray_imaging They didnt use the traditional x-ray imaging that has been around for a hundred years.
asciimo 12y ago
I thought Indiana Jones already did that.
JacobAldridge 12y ago
If you ever get a chance to visit Pompeii, I definitely recommend also making the trip to nearby Herculaneum. Pompeii is grand and impressive in its size; Herculaneum (which was an upmarket, beachside town in 79AD) is boutqiue, compact, less touristy, and for mine a much better experience and view into both life in 79AD and life the day of the eruption.

68 points by diodorus 12y ago

morehatsthantf2 12y ago

Man I wish they told me what they said.

nonnatus 12y ago
Exactly! I was hoping to at least hear what those two words were, no matter how insignificant.

troymc 12y ago

Here's the paper in Nature Communications: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150120/ncomms6895/full/ncomms6895.html http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150120/ncomms6895/full/nco... "Revealing letters in rolled Herculaneum papyri by X-ray phase-contrast imaging" It's bizarre that BBC calls X-rays "photon beams," like something out of Star Trek. Maybe using X-rays to read rolled-up scrolls doesn't sound so amazing? (The details of how they did it are amazing; this is not your grandpa's X-ray imaging system.)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Tarang 12y ago
To be fair, X-Rays are photons, maybe its about the fine-grainness of the technique since they're not X-Raying it but looking for other minuscule changes
big_al337 12y ago
I think they were just trying the emphasize the giant scale of the operation. I feel like the average reader would associate x-rays with the machines found at hospitals. The synchrotron, of course, is a vastly different machine.
gone35 12y ago
Well; as you point out, X-ray phase-contrast tomography and conventional X-ray photography are (nearly) totally different things, so their phrasing seems justifiable to me, if only on editorial grounds --think "the full name of the technique is too long, would cause viewers to get mixed up with conventional X-ray imaging, etc.". Quibbles aside though, it's hard to overstate how significant this finding is: not only this is (apparently) the only extant library left from classical antiquity, but also these are freaking charred scrolls from a volcanic eruption that were considered beyond repair! I found ScienceDaily's article much more informative in this regard: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150122114405.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150122114405.ht...
- toyg 12y ago
  > it's hard to overstate how significant this finding is Let's not get too excited here, it's not like they've magically retrieved all texts; they've retrieved small fragments from a handful of scrolls and the process involved some luck and guesswork, not just software. For the technique itself to work, the scroll has to be slightly bumpy, and not all of them are like that. It's a great step forward, but still, it will likely take decades to retrieve significant portions of text from a small number of scrolls -- and this assuming efforts will always be fully funded (Italy has a lot of old stuff to look after, and they're not exactly swimming in cash right now -- they're even thinking of re-burying several large archeological sites because they simply cannot protect them at this time).

phreeza 12y ago

'photon beams' seams like an unnecessarily complicated way of saying x-ray?

nashashmi 12y ago
clickbait!
skywhopper 12y ago
Yes. At first I thought it was a joke article, wherein someone had the brilliant idea of turning on a light in order to see a scroll previously unreadable because it was hidden in a dark cave. "How did you manage to read the scroll?" "Photon beams!" "Whoaaaa"
- aswanson 12y ago
  I thought the same thing, a joke. Then I read it as 'proton beam' for a few milliseconds...the brain does funny things when it's trying to make sense of something.
- CmonDev 12y ago
  Thanks for making me chuckle today.
simonh 12y ago
I thought they meant some kind of visible light laser and wondered why they didn't just say 'light beams'. After all, visible light is the most familiar form of photon to most people.
adamtj 12y ago
How about this: "Scientists couldn't see what was written on the scrolls until they turned on some lights." The connotation behind "photon beams" more accurately conveys the accomplishment than the roughly synonymous "turning on some lights".
cma 12y ago
Think the plural on beams refers to the beam splitting going on in phase-contrast x-ray imaging http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-contrast_X-ray_imaging http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-contrast_X-ray_imaging They didnt use the traditional x-ray imaging that has been around for a hundred years.

asciimo 12y ago

I thought Indiana Jones already did that.

JacobAldridge 12y ago

If you ever get a chance to visit Pompeii, I definitely recommend also making the trip to nearby Herculaneum. Pompeii is grand and impressive in its size; Herculaneum (which was an upmarket, beachside town in 79AD) is boutqiue, compact, less touristy, and for mine a much better experience and view into both life in 79AD and life the day of the eruption.