4 ms·

I wonder how much it costs to do one of these jobs. I grew up with the Tandy Color Computer 3, which was a fantastic machine, but it is to this day still hampe

by jarcane 12y ago

I wonder how much it costs to do one of these jobs. I grew up with the Tandy Color Computer 3, which was a fantastic machine, but it is to this day still hampered somewhat in development by the fact that the "GIME" chip that serves as the main video/sound/everything controller was a shamefully ill-documented custom job which to this day still hasn't been fully unraveled. Ever since the first one of these popped up on HN, I've been curious about whether that might at least help get a bit further in deconstructing the thing.

AlyssaRowan 12y ago
Depends heavily on the package, the process and the complexity/scale. Really old processes and easily-opened packages can be done by hobbyists for pocket change (opened with a vice/brute force or easily-purchasable chemicals; examined with optical microscopes, you can get fancy USB ones for three figures secondhand?). Modern stuff absolutely needs high-end professional-grade labs, SEMs/TEMs, polishers, all that stuff - and that will likely run you five, six or seven figures. And then there's the analysis phase! It takes a significant amount of time either way, it just depends how much the time (and equipment) will cost! Since you're going for something pretty old, however, it may not be beyond your grasp. Have some spares handy, though! There was a good talk at 31c3 about decapping preparation on a budget, which may get you started: https://youtu.be/RlQJHymiudc https://youtu.be/RlQJHymiudc
- astrodust 12y ago
  Most of these projects I've seen done by hand, visual inspection. Is there anything that helps with automatic analysis? A sort of OCR for transistors?
  - BarsMonster 12y ago
    http://www.degate.org/ http://www.degate.org/ There is also numerous proprietary/non-public tools. For example ChipWorks has some advanced software.
BarsMonster 12y ago
All this was done at no cost at the spare time by guys interested in retro computers. All chip decapsulation/microphotography work took ~10 hours, vectorizing layers and making actual schematic/verilog took about 1000 hours.

by jarcane 12y ago

AlyssaRowan 12y ago

Depends heavily on the package, the process and the complexity/scale. Really old processes and easily-opened packages can be done by hobbyists for pocket change (opened with a vice/brute force or easily-purchasable chemicals; examined with optical microscopes, you can get fancy USB ones for three figures secondhand?). Modern stuff absolutely needs high-end professional-grade labs, SEMs/TEMs, polishers, all that stuff - and that will likely run you five, six or seven figures. And then there's the analysis phase! It takes a significant amount of time either way, it just depends how much the time (and equipment) will cost! Since you're going for something pretty old, however, it may not be beyond your grasp. Have some spares handy, though! There was a good talk at 31c3 about decapping preparation on a budget, which may get you started: https://youtu.be/RlQJHymiudc https://youtu.be/RlQJHymiudc

astrodust 12y ago
Most of these projects I've seen done by hand, visual inspection. Is there anything that helps with automatic analysis? A sort of OCR for transistors?
- BarsMonster 12y ago
  http://www.degate.org/ http://www.degate.org/ There is also numerous proprietary/non-public tools. For example ChipWorks has some advanced software.

BarsMonster 12y ago

All this was done at no cost at the spare time by guys interested in retro computers. All chip decapsulation/microphotography work took ~10 hours, vectorizing layers and making actual schematic/verilog took about 1000 hours.