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Sounds awesome - will have to check it out. Totally random aside: does it talk about the evolution of debtor's prisons after slavery was no longer an option? I

by bmajz 12y ago

Sounds awesome - will have to check it out. Totally random aside: does it talk about the evolution of debtor's prisons after slavery was no longer an option? I always wondered why people thought it made sense to lock someone up with no economic recourse to pay down a debt. There were probably much better options to deal with the potential moral hazard.

graeme 12y ago
From wikipedia: Destitute persons unable to pay a court-ordered judgment would be sentenced to these prisons until they had worked off their debt via labor or secured outside funds to pay the balance; the product of their labor went towards both the costs of their incarceration and their accrued debt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors'_prison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors'_prison Labor was one form. I imagine being sent to prison moved families to action to bail out the debtor when possible. Finally, consider all the debts paid to avoid going to debtors prison. I don't know anything about the evolution of the system. Just pointing out that it wasn't an insane way to acheive the goal of debt payment. (Though a totally inhumane way)
colinbartlett 12y ago
Related article from this morning: https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-racial-justice/profit-companies-are-helping-put https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-racial-justice...
rhizome31 12y ago
I'm only half way through the book, no mention of debtor's prisons so far. In many cases the person retained as peon is not the debtor but a relative, typically the daughter. The creditor may also let the peon believe that she will be able to pay her debt with the pay he gives her, like pimps do to prostitutes they've "helped" crossing a border. By the way, I don't think we need to use past tense when discussing this topic.
zo1 12y ago
Why are you removing responsibility from the debtor? It's just as much the fault of the creditor to give the (maybe unpayable?) loan, as it is for the debtor to take/agree to it. On the one hand, the debtor pretty much ends up stealing. And on the other hand, the creditor took a too-risky loan without considering the repayment ability of the person he was giving it to. We're conditioned to think this as some sort of cruel injustice (and it is indeed a sad situation), while completely ignoring the actions of the debtor. You could go one step further and say that perhaps the debtor was committing fraud by tricking the creditor into giving out the loan when he knew the chance of repayment was low. (Assuming debt-slavery wasn't the goal of the creditor in the first place). Also exclude accidents and life-altering events (corner case). I'd imagine that after a few of these horrible incidents came to light in a connected world (i.e. modern times, not centuries past) creditors would start adding clauses into their contracts about possible re-payment plans/options, etc. Hell, they might not even offer to give the loans out if they were too risky. If there is one thing I'd like individuals to take from this comment, it's that laws and regulations aren't the only solution to society's problems. I'd argue that they merely "mask" away the problems, without ever giving individuals a chance to resolve it amongst themselves in peaceful and non-barbaric ways. This is true now more than it has ever been in the history of our world, with the advent of modern communications and the internet. At least, give it a brainstorm/thought next time you jump to government intervention for any perceived injustice in this world.

by bmajz 12y ago

graeme 12y ago

From wikipedia: Destitute persons unable to pay a court-ordered judgment would be sentenced to these prisons until they had worked off their debt via labor or secured outside funds to pay the balance; the product of their labor went towards both the costs of their incarceration and their accrued debt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors'_prison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors'_prison Labor was one form. I imagine being sent to prison moved families to action to bail out the debtor when possible. Finally, consider all the debts paid to avoid going to debtors prison. I don't know anything about the evolution of the system. Just pointing out that it wasn't an insane way to acheive the goal of debt payment. (Though a totally inhumane way)

colinbartlett 12y ago

Related article from this morning: https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-racial-justice/profit-companies-are-helping-put https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-racial-justice...

rhizome31 12y ago

I'm only half way through the book, no mention of debtor's prisons so far. In many cases the person retained as peon is not the debtor but a relative, typically the daughter. The creditor may also let the peon believe that she will be able to pay her debt with the pay he gives her, like pimps do to prostitutes they've "helped" crossing a border. By the way, I don't think we need to use past tense when discussing this topic.

zo1 12y ago

Why are you removing responsibility from the debtor? It's just as much the fault of the creditor to give the (maybe unpayable?) loan, as it is for the debtor to take/agree to it. On the one hand, the debtor pretty much ends up stealing. And on the other hand, the creditor took a too-risky loan without considering the repayment ability of the person he was giving it to. We're conditioned to think this as some sort of cruel injustice (and it is indeed a sad situation), while completely ignoring the actions of the debtor. You could go one step further and say that perhaps the debtor was committing fraud by tricking the creditor into giving out the loan when he knew the chance of repayment was low. (Assuming debt-slavery wasn't the goal of the creditor in the first place). Also exclude accidents and life-altering events (corner case). I'd imagine that after a few of these horrible incidents came to light in a connected world (i.e. modern times, not centuries past) creditors would start adding clauses into their contracts about possible re-payment plans/options, etc. Hell, they might not even offer to give the loans out if they were too risky. If there is one thing I'd like individuals to take from this comment, it's that laws and regulations aren't the only solution to society's problems. I'd argue that they merely "mask" away the problems, without ever giving individuals a chance to resolve it amongst themselves in peaceful and non-barbaric ways. This is true now more than it has ever been in the history of our world, with the advent of modern communications and the internet. At least, give it a brainstorm/thought next time you jump to government intervention for any perceived injustice in this world.