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I love sports, but every time I watch or support them I feel like I'm destroying civil society and undermining democracy and helping to destroy the last vestige

by ansible 12y ago

I love sports, but every time I watch or support them I feel like I'm destroying civil society and undermining democracy and helping to destroy the last vestiges of effective public education. I'm not a big sports fan, but pro sports does serve a purpose. Sports in general is ritualized hunting / warfare. A civilized and less brutal version of war, but the roots are clear. The skills used are the same as our ancestors used to survive: running, throwing, tackling, hitting things with sticks. That's war. Watching sports is a celebration of those ancient survival skills, though they don't have much place in modern society. These urges exist within many of us, and need an outlet. Sports is highly preferable to the small-scale skirmishes that frequently occurred in centuries past. Many people feel the strong call of tribalism too. Us versus them. Rooting for the home team, and feeling their ups and downs as your own is also wired into us at a deep level. It would be a lot more effective for society if we were pitting city governments against each other, seeing who can deliver the best services at the lowest taxpayer cost. But I'm not holding my breath for someone to set that league. :-)

dragonwriter 12y ago
> Sports in general is ritualized hunting / warfare. Ritualized, sure. Hunting / warfare? Depends on the sport. Dancesport is a thing, and its assuredly not ritualized hunting / warfare. > Sports is highly preferable to the small-scale skirmishes that frequently occurred in centuries past. Sports is -- and has been for quite some time -- a frequent focus of the small-scale skirmishes much the same as those you paint it as an alternative to. I'm not sure its much of an outlet. > It would be a lot more effective for society if we were pitting city governments against each other, seeing who can deliver the best services at the lowest taxpayer cost. But I'm not holding my breath for someone to set that league. Actually, before those "small-scale skirmishes" were so frequently outbursts about sport, they were often outbursts between the backers of different political factions, ideologies, or groups striving to shape society (we still sometimes have those, too; sport may have kept the violence while removing the social purpose to a certain extent, but not entirely.)
- ansible 12y ago
  Dancesport is a thing, and its assuredly not ritualized hunting / warfare. The main topic of conversation is the widely popular professional sports such as Football, American Football, etc. These sports have attackers, defenders, and so on. Sports is -- and has been for quite some time -- a frequent focus of the small-scale skirmishes much the same as those you paint it as an alternative to. I don't see that as the proximate cause of most conflicts throughout history. Mostly, it seems to be about resources, and sometimes ideology too.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > I don't see that as the proximate cause of most conflicts throughout history. No one said it was the proximate cause of most conflicts throughout history. Nor have conflicts in general stopped since sports became popular, nor were conflicts in general part of the discussion. What was asserted upthread was that sports was an outlet that prevented "small-scale skirmishes". I simply pointed out that, in fact, professional sports are -- and this is true globally -- well-known as focuses of small-scale skirmishes and social violence, rather than an outlet which prevents them.
    - ansible 12y ago
      Ah, are you talking about modern-day football hooligans? When I say "small-scale skirmishes", I'm talking about relatively small border conflicts and the like that last less than a year and kill tens to hundreds of people. As opposed to regional or national conflicts where the casualties get into the thousands or much higher.
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        > When I say "small-scale skirmishes", I'm talking about relatively small border conflicts and the like that last less than a year and kill tens to hundreds of people. Football skirmishes that kill people on that order aren't unheard of, and I know of no evidence even suggesting that the popularity of professional sports even correlates with (much less causes) a reduction the kind of small-scale skirmishes you discuss (even before considering whether the degree of such effect is offset by violence directly associated with sport.)
briandear 12y ago
Swimming is ritualized warfare? That argument sounds like something one might come up with if they had a freshman philosophy paper due the next day. We could say that grocery shopping is ritualized hunting or that a piñata is an encouragement of ritualized torture. There comes a point when the intellectual threads holding together an argument approach absurdity.
- ansible 12y ago
  I didn't invent the idea of sports as ritualized warfare: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/olympics/a/OlympicGames.htm http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/olympics/a/OlympicGames.h...
- ansible 12y ago
  We could say that grocery shopping is ritualized hunting ... It is 'gathering' the other main component of 'hunting and gathering'. ... or that a piñata is an encouragement of ritualized torture. It may amuse you to know that I did actually look into that. However, the piñata's origins seem relatively innocuous.

by ansible 12y ago

dragonwriter 12y ago

> Sports in general is ritualized hunting / warfare. Ritualized, sure. Hunting / warfare? Depends on the sport. Dancesport is a thing, and its assuredly not ritualized hunting / warfare. > Sports is highly preferable to the small-scale skirmishes that frequently occurred in centuries past. Sports is -- and has been for quite some time -- a frequent focus of the small-scale skirmishes much the same as those you paint it as an alternative to. I'm not sure its much of an outlet. > It would be a lot more effective for society if we were pitting city governments against each other, seeing who can deliver the best services at the lowest taxpayer cost. But I'm not holding my breath for someone to set that league. Actually, before those "small-scale skirmishes" were so frequently outbursts about sport, they were often outbursts between the backers of different political factions, ideologies, or groups striving to shape society (we still sometimes have those, too; sport may have kept the violence while removing the social purpose to a certain extent, but not entirely.)

ansible 12y ago
Dancesport is a thing, and its assuredly not ritualized hunting / warfare. The main topic of conversation is the widely popular professional sports such as Football, American Football, etc. These sports have attackers, defenders, and so on. Sports is -- and has been for quite some time -- a frequent focus of the small-scale skirmishes much the same as those you paint it as an alternative to. I don't see that as the proximate cause of most conflicts throughout history. Mostly, it seems to be about resources, and sometimes ideology too.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > I don't see that as the proximate cause of most conflicts throughout history. No one said it was the proximate cause of most conflicts throughout history. Nor have conflicts in general stopped since sports became popular, nor were conflicts in general part of the discussion. What was asserted upthread was that sports was an outlet that prevented "small-scale skirmishes". I simply pointed out that, in fact, professional sports are -- and this is true globally -- well-known as focuses of small-scale skirmishes and social violence, rather than an outlet which prevents them.
  - ansible 12y ago
    Ah, are you talking about modern-day football hooligans? When I say "small-scale skirmishes", I'm talking about relatively small border conflicts and the like that last less than a year and kill tens to hundreds of people. As opposed to regional or national conflicts where the casualties get into the thousands or much higher.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > When I say "small-scale skirmishes", I'm talking about relatively small border conflicts and the like that last less than a year and kill tens to hundreds of people. Football skirmishes that kill people on that order aren't unheard of, and I know of no evidence even suggesting that the popularity of professional sports even correlates with (much less causes) a reduction the kind of small-scale skirmishes you discuss (even before considering whether the degree of such effect is offset by violence directly associated with sport.)

briandear 12y ago

Swimming is ritualized warfare? That argument sounds like something one might come up with if they had a freshman philosophy paper due the next day. We could say that grocery shopping is ritualized hunting or that a piñata is an encouragement of ritualized torture. There comes a point when the intellectual threads holding together an argument approach absurdity.

ansible 12y ago
I didn't invent the idea of sports as ritualized warfare: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/olympics/a/OlympicGames.htm http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/olympics/a/OlympicGames.h...
ansible 12y ago
We could say that grocery shopping is ritualized hunting ... It is 'gathering' the other main component of 'hunting and gathering'. ... or that a piñata is an encouragement of ritualized torture. It may amuse you to know that I did actually look into that. However, the piñata's origins seem relatively innocuous.