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> 0-60 in 4.4 seconds Why didn't BMW go full electric? The Tesla Model S P85D can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, costs less, and can carry a whole family. It isn't qu

by jitl 12y ago

> 0-60 in 4.4 seconds Why didn't BMW go full electric? The Tesla Model S P85D can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, costs less, and can carry a whole family. It isn't quite as sexy, but it's close.

Shivetya 12y ago
because they technology isn't ready. I am forever amazed that people think an eighty thousand dollar plus car that barely does more than two hundred miles per charge is some kind of breakthrough. Its more of a marketing masterpiece than much else. If there were a sustainable market for these cars the big guys would have been all over it. Color me impressed if he delivers that 3 before 2018. Can't even get the X out on time and its just a lumpy S. What makes the i8 interesting is that it looks futuristic and its use of carbon fiber. However the i3 is likely the better candidate as its use at the price point it has is more of the story than the fact it has a battery
- blacksmith_tb 12y ago
  Currently we have an efficient, large-scale recycling effort to reclaim materials from cars. We are only beginning to recycle carbon-fiber, but it seems likely that it will not be as easy or practical to scale.
- pslam 12y ago
  > I am forever amazed that people think an eighty thousand dollar plus car that barely does more than two hundred miles per charge is some kind of breakthrough. It's a no-compromise, all-electric luxury car which absolutely replaces an ICE car for every day use. It's priced similarly to other large, luxury, performance vehicles. It's mass-market and sold in many countries. You can, today, buy this. I don't understand how you can pass this off as not a breakthrough.
  - threeseed 12y ago
    The point is that it can't replace an ICE for most of the world. Every country is not like the US with a giant supercharger network. So range is critical. And Tesla isn't sold in "many" countries. It's an insignificant fraction of a typical car manufacturer.
    - organsnyder 12y ago
      My daily commute is under 10 miles round-trip. With errands, I occasionally do 20-30 miles. If I had an electric and needed to go on a longer trip, I could either borrow my wife's car or rent an ICE vehicle. I take road trips longer than 200 miles very rarely. Yes, I realize that some people do have longer commutes than me. But very few people commute more than 200 miles per day. Of course, this does limit all-electric vehicles to those that can afford a second vehicle or a rental when the need arises. But I don't think anyone is arguing that electric vehicles have reached the point of being affordable to anyone but the well-off.
      - threeseed 12y ago
        Electric cars are definitely affordable. But your situation just exemplified the problem. A lot of people don't have a wife or they would be using their car and the hassle/cost of renting an ICE vehicle is pretty prohibitive. Why would I buy an electric car when I can just a "normal" one that has no downsides ? That's the question hybrids can have an answer to that pure electric can't.
      - gambiting 12y ago
        The length of the commute is not a problem. While charging from a regular 230V outlet(standard here in EU) you only add 8 miles of range per every hour of charging. If I had it I would not be able to recharge during the night what I drove out during the day. Unless I installed a more powerful charger....which I can't fit where I live. That's my problem with that car.
        greglindahl 12y ago
        Let's say that you park at home 10 hours a day every day, and 10 extra hours over the weekend. That means you can drive 80 miles per day and 8*80=640 miles per week with no problems. The fraction of drivers who drive more than this is pretty small. I can easily imagine that a few drivers drive more than this. Why do you think that's important for the overall success of electric cars?
  - 6stringmerc 12y ago
    Living in a major city in the Southwest, I see Tesla sedans frequently, a little bit more often than Maserati sedans, but not nearly as often as large S-Class or G-Class MB vehicles. Before they went bust, I did see two Fisker Karmas around town. To me, the Tesla is fundamentally a status symbol that happens to be usable. I think Tesla exists in a very odd bubble within Government and Market forces. Taking a $400 Million + loan, then replacing it with investor money, and still angling to get Federal & State tax credits to make it priced "competitvely" to other luxury sedans doesn't seem like the technology is really the innovation. It's an impressive bit of engineering, sure, but the past and present indicate it's not truly priced similarly, it's subsidized to incentivize buyers.
  - masklinn 12y ago
    > It's a no-compromise What do you mean no compromise? It's a big sedan which can only serve as commuting car. > which absolutely replaces an ICE car for every day use It replaces an ICE car half the size and a fraction of the price. > It's priced similarly to other large, luxury, performance vehicles. Which have multiple times the autonomy and can actually eat road, the original purpose of large sedans.
    - Raphael 12y ago
      Eat road?
- 6stringmerc 12y ago
  Definitely in agreement with you, re: Tesla and what true automotive innovation should be like now and in the future. I've kept my eye on Local Motors for quite a while, and finally decided to participate in a challenge that might be of interest to you as well...the LITECAR Challenge. Looks to be about 80 entries so far, some more viable than others, as it's an international / un-vetted forum with general guiding principles and cash prizes. Link: https://localmotors.com/arpa-e/litecar-challenge/ https://localmotors.com/arpa-e/litecar-challenge/
wahsd 12y ago
I don't think they are emotionally or technologically ready for that leap yet. I think they will be able to make it and they better, but I don't think Germany as a whole is really ready to deal with what that means. I don't even think that many Americans have fully grasped what electric vehicles mean. It essentially means, at the very least, a seriously diminished car culture. There is no tuning and tweaking and fixing in electric vehicles. You get an OTA update like announced today, or you swap out one of the few modular components and be done with it.
- threeseed 12y ago
  It has nothing do with culture. People are always looking to tweak and tune and they will continue to do so in electric cars. You can guarantee that just like we can jailbreak supposedly secure iPhones people will get around software update security.
threeseed 12y ago
Probably because BMW sells in most countries. Tesla doesn't. As such you have to take into account that electric infrastructure simply isn't available for most purchasers. And the argument of just use work/home doesn't apply. Many people park in work garages and live in apartments.
scrumper 12y ago
I seem to remember BMW having invested in hydrogen technology; maybe that's been canned now, but perhaps they're not ready to commit fully to another unproven post-gasoline power source.
- gambiting 12y ago
  I honestly do not understand why people get excited about hydrogen as power source. It escapes out of any container you put it in - a regular hydrogen tank will lose all of its contents within 3-4 weeks. A 70kg lead bottle only holds 1kg of Hydrogen. The power density is an order of magnitude lower than that of petrol,so a car using it as fuel will use hundreds of liters to get anywhere. And most importantly - there is literally zero of it in pure form here on Earth. It needs to be extracted first and then cooled down into liquid which costs a lot of energy. These are all problems that don't really have good solutions.
  - sandstrom 12y ago
    It surprises me to. I guess it's mainly oil companies that get's excited about hydrogen, because it can be produced from hydrocarbons (and serves as a chimera, to extend petrol's life): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production
ulfw 12y ago
Because a Tesla is basically an electric car for the rich and famous and for SF tech workers. Where do you charge it at home if you happen to live in an apartment complex or high rise or have to park your car in a city lot? If you own a house in the Bay Area with a garage and happen to work at hip tech company with charging stations et al, you can charge it at home and at work. That doesn't quite comprise how most of the world lives.
- greglindahl 12y ago
  So, you're reasoning that BMW can't make a high-end electric car, which is going to be purchased by the rich and famous, because only the rich and famous can charge electric cars? BMW already makes an electric car, the i3, for people who are less rich.

by jitl 12y ago

> 0-60 in 4.4 seconds Why didn't BMW go full electric? The Tesla Model S P85D can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, costs less, and can carry a whole family. It isn't quite as sexy, but it's close.

Shivetya 12y ago

because they technology isn't ready. I am forever amazed that people think an eighty thousand dollar plus car that barely does more than two hundred miles per charge is some kind of breakthrough. Its more of a marketing masterpiece than much else. If there were a sustainable market for these cars the big guys would have been all over it. Color me impressed if he delivers that 3 before 2018. Can't even get the X out on time and its just a lumpy S. What makes the i8 interesting is that it looks futuristic and its use of carbon fiber. However the i3 is likely the better candidate as its use at the price point it has is more of the story than the fact it has a battery

blacksmith_tb 12y ago
Currently we have an efficient, large-scale recycling effort to reclaim materials from cars. We are only beginning to recycle carbon-fiber, but it seems likely that it will not be as easy or practical to scale.
pslam 12y ago
> I am forever amazed that people think an eighty thousand dollar plus car that barely does more than two hundred miles per charge is some kind of breakthrough. It's a no-compromise, all-electric luxury car which absolutely replaces an ICE car for every day use. It's priced similarly to other large, luxury, performance vehicles. It's mass-market and sold in many countries. You can, today, buy this. I don't understand how you can pass this off as not a breakthrough.
- threeseed 12y ago
  The point is that it can't replace an ICE for most of the world. Every country is not like the US with a giant supercharger network. So range is critical. And Tesla isn't sold in "many" countries. It's an insignificant fraction of a typical car manufacturer.
  - organsnyder 12y ago
    My daily commute is under 10 miles round-trip. With errands, I occasionally do 20-30 miles. If I had an electric and needed to go on a longer trip, I could either borrow my wife's car or rent an ICE vehicle. I take road trips longer than 200 miles very rarely. Yes, I realize that some people do have longer commutes than me. But very few people commute more than 200 miles per day. Of course, this does limit all-electric vehicles to those that can afford a second vehicle or a rental when the need arises. But I don't think anyone is arguing that electric vehicles have reached the point of being affordable to anyone but the well-off.
    - threeseed 12y ago
      Electric cars are definitely affordable. But your situation just exemplified the problem. A lot of people don't have a wife or they would be using their car and the hassle/cost of renting an ICE vehicle is pretty prohibitive. Why would I buy an electric car when I can just a "normal" one that has no downsides ? That's the question hybrids can have an answer to that pure electric can't.
    - gambiting 12y ago
      The length of the commute is not a problem. While charging from a regular 230V outlet(standard here in EU) you only add 8 miles of range per every hour of charging. If I had it I would not be able to recharge during the night what I drove out during the day. Unless I installed a more powerful charger....which I can't fit where I live. That's my problem with that car.
      - greglindahl 12y ago
        Let's say that you park at home 10 hours a day every day, and 10 extra hours over the weekend. That means you can drive 80 miles per day and 8*80=640 miles per week with no problems. The fraction of drivers who drive more than this is pretty small. I can easily imagine that a few drivers drive more than this. Why do you think that's important for the overall success of electric cars?
- 6stringmerc 12y ago
  Living in a major city in the Southwest, I see Tesla sedans frequently, a little bit more often than Maserati sedans, but not nearly as often as large S-Class or G-Class MB vehicles. Before they went bust, I did see two Fisker Karmas around town. To me, the Tesla is fundamentally a status symbol that happens to be usable. I think Tesla exists in a very odd bubble within Government and Market forces. Taking a $400 Million + loan, then replacing it with investor money, and still angling to get Federal & State tax credits to make it priced "competitvely" to other luxury sedans doesn't seem like the technology is really the innovation. It's an impressive bit of engineering, sure, but the past and present indicate it's not truly priced similarly, it's subsidized to incentivize buyers.
- masklinn 12y ago
  > It's a no-compromise What do you mean no compromise? It's a big sedan which can only serve as commuting car. > which absolutely replaces an ICE car for every day use It replaces an ICE car half the size and a fraction of the price. > It's priced similarly to other large, luxury, performance vehicles. Which have multiple times the autonomy and can actually eat road, the original purpose of large sedans.
  - Raphael 12y ago
    Eat road?
6stringmerc 12y ago
Definitely in agreement with you, re: Tesla and what true automotive innovation should be like now and in the future. I've kept my eye on Local Motors for quite a while, and finally decided to participate in a challenge that might be of interest to you as well...the LITECAR Challenge. Looks to be about 80 entries so far, some more viable than others, as it's an international / un-vetted forum with general guiding principles and cash prizes. Link: https://localmotors.com/arpa-e/litecar-challenge/ https://localmotors.com/arpa-e/litecar-challenge/

wahsd 12y ago

I don't think they are emotionally or technologically ready for that leap yet. I think they will be able to make it and they better, but I don't think Germany as a whole is really ready to deal with what that means. I don't even think that many Americans have fully grasped what electric vehicles mean. It essentially means, at the very least, a seriously diminished car culture. There is no tuning and tweaking and fixing in electric vehicles. You get an OTA update like announced today, or you swap out one of the few modular components and be done with it.

threeseed 12y ago
It has nothing do with culture. People are always looking to tweak and tune and they will continue to do so in electric cars. You can guarantee that just like we can jailbreak supposedly secure iPhones people will get around software update security.

threeseed 12y ago

Probably because BMW sells in most countries. Tesla doesn't. As such you have to take into account that electric infrastructure simply isn't available for most purchasers. And the argument of just use work/home doesn't apply. Many people park in work garages and live in apartments.

scrumper 12y ago

I seem to remember BMW having invested in hydrogen technology; maybe that's been canned now, but perhaps they're not ready to commit fully to another unproven post-gasoline power source.

gambiting 12y ago
I honestly do not understand why people get excited about hydrogen as power source. It escapes out of any container you put it in - a regular hydrogen tank will lose all of its contents within 3-4 weeks. A 70kg lead bottle only holds 1kg of Hydrogen. The power density is an order of magnitude lower than that of petrol,so a car using it as fuel will use hundreds of liters to get anywhere. And most importantly - there is literally zero of it in pure form here on Earth. It needs to be extracted first and then cooled down into liquid which costs a lot of energy. These are all problems that don't really have good solutions.
- sandstrom 12y ago
  It surprises me to. I guess it's mainly oil companies that get's excited about hydrogen, because it can be produced from hydrocarbons (and serves as a chimera, to extend petrol's life): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

ulfw 12y ago

Because a Tesla is basically an electric car for the rich and famous and for SF tech workers. Where do you charge it at home if you happen to live in an apartment complex or high rise or have to park your car in a city lot? If you own a house in the Bay Area with a garage and happen to work at hip tech company with charging stations et al, you can charge it at home and at work. That doesn't quite comprise how most of the world lives.

greglindahl 12y ago
So, you're reasoning that BMW can't make a high-end electric car, which is going to be purchased by the rich and famous, because only the rich and famous can charge electric cars? BMW already makes an electric car, the i3, for people who are less rich.