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I don't think anyone outside certain religions[1] asserts that genders should not have equal opportunities. Could you link to such a person? A better statement

I don't think anyone outside certain religions[1] asserts that genders should not have equal opportunities. Could you link to such a person? A better statement: The war is between the ideology that individual humans should have equal opportunities, and the ideology that certain groups should be statistically equally represented in all fields. (Or sometimes it's all fields that result in "power", a poorly defined term.) [1] Interestingly, those religions usually have more women than computing. I've never been to a church where women didn't outnumber men.

saraid216 12y ago
Since you're obfuscating, I want to clarify that your "better statement" is not a restatement of what I said. It's a disagreement.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Yes, I'm disagreeing. I guess my phrasing was unclear, my apologies. Again, if you can link to people of any significance who openly state opposition to equal opportunity for individuals, it would be fairly convincing.
  - geofft 12y ago
    What does "equal opportunity" mean? https://inclusiveactioneverydaylives.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/40824_176008489215668_1643818166_n1-e1367896308468.jpg https://inclusiveactioneverydaylives.files.wordpress.com/201... Is it equal opportunity to see the baseball game, or equal opportunity to pick up a crate? There are certainly people who state opposition to each of these forms, although they each tend to say they support "equal opportunity," meaning the other.
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      To translate my statement to the language used in your cartoon, "equality of individual opportunity" is "SAMENESS" and statistical equality is "EQUITY". One major obfuscation made by various activists in this discussion is that lack of EQUITY can only be caused by a lack of SAMENESS. As illustrated nicely by the cartoon, some folks are short. If shortness is distributed unevenly, then SAMENESS will result in some groups being underrepresented.
      - geofft 12y ago
        Yes, but (to stretch this analogy quite thin) the goal here isn't shortness or tallness. The goal is being able to watch the baseball game. It just so happens that there's a big wooden fence there, which may or may not have some reason to exist, but its purpose is definitely not to block short people from watching the game. If it has a purpose, it's something else. Blocking short people is a side effect. So, if shortness is distributed unequally, and there's a big wooden fence in front of the game, you could respond by saying that tall people are naturally more suited for game-watching, and argue based on tall people having historically been more successful at it. But that claim isn't likely to stand up to a deep examination of causality and reality. There are two significantly more defensible responses: give short people enough crates to see over the fence, or tear down the fence (preferably by figuring out what purpose it serves, and building something else to serve its purpose without the side effects, like a Plexiglas fence). Then your ability to watch the game will be determined only by your natural talent at game-watching, not by your natural talent at being tall.
        throway3242342 12y ago
        > So, if shortness is distributed unequally, and there's a big wooden fence in front of the game, you could respond by saying that tall people are naturally more suited for game-watching, and argue based on tall people having historically been more successful at it. But that claim isn't likely to stand up to a deep examination of causality and reality. Interesting observation. The questions that follow next are: (1) What are the "fences" in Silicon Valley that lead to the issues described in the article (a single fence is interesting for illustration, but in practice there are probably multiple fences) (2) Of those additional "fences" how many are the fault of culture (the article cites several such as viewing women entrepreneurs as potential mates first and funding opportunities second) and how many are circumstances beyond the control of anyone in Silicon Valley (like the last of STEM support during formative years (childhood/adolescence/higher education) or the fact that greater testosterone levels correlate with greater aggression and risk taking that VCs tend to look for (several times in the article there are examples of women not being forward and actually asking for money or not asking for enough). The self selection of female entrepreneurs only seeking out VCs that have funded women and or have women involved is yet another fence that no one can solve but the women (this creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. what if several VC funds out there haven't funded a women because many women they may have wanted to fund never approached them to ask for money). The former "fences" (like viewing female entrepreneurs as mates, we should drive out of the industry. But some of the latter issues are the responsibility of women (and the men whose exhibit the same traits) to solve. I know a ton of shy nerdy guys that would never get funding because they don't know how to pitch and get someone to cut them a check (close the deal). They either have to learn those skills or they have to pair up with another person who has skills in selling. Being tenacious and aggressive matters. Of all the men working in Silicon Valley, a tiny fraction of them are actually fundable because they have the skills to be funded (technically brilliant and/or tenacious/alphas). The overwhelming majority do not get funded because they either don't have the technical skills or they are betas or omegas. For startup ideas not reliant on some major, defensible technological advantage, the VC industry has a strong preference for founding teams teams that have at least one alpha among them regardless of gender. One question I'd love to see studied is testosterone levels of people (relative to their own gender) pitching VCs and whether they get funded, and if so by how much. Assuming there is a preference for investing in people with high testosterone levels, the second question which I'd like to see investigated (but I don't know how you'd design an experiment for this.) is whether or not investing in greater testosterone levels is a good investment thesis/strategy.
nl 12y ago
I don't think anyone outside certain religions[1] asserts that genders should not have equal opportunities. Could you link to such a person? Some (fairly major) golf clubs don't let women play on their courses[1]. Plenty of people think women should not be allowed in combat roles in the armed forces[2]. I could continue... [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10186258/Golfs-governing-body-to-reconsider-issue-of-men-only-clubs-and-Open-Championship.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10186258/Go... [2] http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-women-be-allowed-to-fight-in-combat/putting-women-in-combat-is-a-disastrous-decision http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-women-be-allowed-to...
- SamReidHughes 12y ago
  > Some (fairly major) golf clubs don't let women play on their courses[1]. Actually those clubs don't let women become members of the club, but they do let them play on the course. (Specifically, Muirfield does.) Or in some cases (I'm not sure if it's a nonzero number now that the R&A golf club has had its vote) they don't own the course.
  - nl 12y ago
    So that is confirmation that women don't have the right to join the club?
- malandrew 12y ago
  Will men be allowed to participate in Glassbreakers? It would be pretty easy to cite circumstances when women are excluded and men are excluded. For example, there are men's only colleges and women's only colleges, and the number of women's only institutions of higher education greatly outnumber the number of men's only institutions (The only one I can think of is Hampden Sydney in Virginia). Personally, I'm very anti-gender binary, so my purpose of commenting here is that it is intellectually dishonest to cite examples where women are excluded and conveniently omit examples where men are excluded.
  - _tlf7 12y ago

saraid216 12y ago

Since you're obfuscating, I want to clarify that your "better statement" is not a restatement of what I said. It's a disagreement.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Yes, I'm disagreeing. I guess my phrasing was unclear, my apologies. Again, if you can link to people of any significance who openly state opposition to equal opportunity for individuals, it would be fairly convincing.
- geofft 12y ago
  What does "equal opportunity" mean? https://inclusiveactioneverydaylives.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/40824_176008489215668_1643818166_n1-e1367896308468.jpg https://inclusiveactioneverydaylives.files.wordpress.com/201... Is it equal opportunity to see the baseball game, or equal opportunity to pick up a crate? There are certainly people who state opposition to each of these forms, although they each tend to say they support "equal opportunity," meaning the other.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    To translate my statement to the language used in your cartoon, "equality of individual opportunity" is "SAMENESS" and statistical equality is "EQUITY". One major obfuscation made by various activists in this discussion is that lack of EQUITY can only be caused by a lack of SAMENESS. As illustrated nicely by the cartoon, some folks are short. If shortness is distributed unevenly, then SAMENESS will result in some groups being underrepresented.
    - geofft 12y ago
      Yes, but (to stretch this analogy quite thin) the goal here isn't shortness or tallness. The goal is being able to watch the baseball game. It just so happens that there's a big wooden fence there, which may or may not have some reason to exist, but its purpose is definitely not to block short people from watching the game. If it has a purpose, it's something else. Blocking short people is a side effect. So, if shortness is distributed unequally, and there's a big wooden fence in front of the game, you could respond by saying that tall people are naturally more suited for game-watching, and argue based on tall people having historically been more successful at it. But that claim isn't likely to stand up to a deep examination of causality and reality. There are two significantly more defensible responses: give short people enough crates to see over the fence, or tear down the fence (preferably by figuring out what purpose it serves, and building something else to serve its purpose without the side effects, like a Plexiglas fence). Then your ability to watch the game will be determined only by your natural talent at game-watching, not by your natural talent at being tall.
      - throway3242342 12y ago
        > So, if shortness is distributed unequally, and there's a big wooden fence in front of the game, you could respond by saying that tall people are naturally more suited for game-watching, and argue based on tall people having historically been more successful at it. But that claim isn't likely to stand up to a deep examination of causality and reality. Interesting observation. The questions that follow next are: (1) What are the "fences" in Silicon Valley that lead to the issues described in the article (a single fence is interesting for illustration, but in practice there are probably multiple fences) (2) Of those additional "fences" how many are the fault of culture (the article cites several such as viewing women entrepreneurs as potential mates first and funding opportunities second) and how many are circumstances beyond the control of anyone in Silicon Valley (like the last of STEM support during formative years (childhood/adolescence/higher education) or the fact that greater testosterone levels correlate with greater aggression and risk taking that VCs tend to look for (several times in the article there are examples of women not being forward and actually asking for money or not asking for enough). The self selection of female entrepreneurs only seeking out VCs that have funded women and or have women involved is yet another fence that no one can solve but the women (this creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. what if several VC funds out there haven't funded a women because many women they may have wanted to fund never approached them to ask for money). The former "fences" (like viewing female entrepreneurs as mates, we should drive out of the industry. But some of the latter issues are the responsibility of women (and the men whose exhibit the same traits) to solve. I know a ton of shy nerdy guys that would never get funding because they don't know how to pitch and get someone to cut them a check (close the deal). They either have to learn those skills or they have to pair up with another person who has skills in selling. Being tenacious and aggressive matters. Of all the men working in Silicon Valley, a tiny fraction of them are actually fundable because they have the skills to be funded (technically brilliant and/or tenacious/alphas). The overwhelming majority do not get funded because they either don't have the technical skills or they are betas or omegas. For startup ideas not reliant on some major, defensible technological advantage, the VC industry has a strong preference for founding teams teams that have at least one alpha among them regardless of gender. One question I'd love to see studied is testosterone levels of people (relative to their own gender) pitching VCs and whether they get funded, and if so by how much. Assuming there is a preference for investing in people with high testosterone levels, the second question which I'd like to see investigated (but I don't know how you'd design an experiment for this.) is whether or not investing in greater testosterone levels is a good investment thesis/strategy.

nl 12y ago

I don't think anyone outside certain religions[1] asserts that genders should not have equal opportunities. Could you link to such a person? Some (fairly major) golf clubs don't let women play on their courses[1]. Plenty of people think women should not be allowed in combat roles in the armed forces[2]. I could continue... [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10186258/Golfs-governing-body-to-reconsider-issue-of-men-only-clubs-and-Open-Championship.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10186258/Go... [2] http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-women-be-allowed-to-fight-in-combat/putting-women-in-combat-is-a-disastrous-decision http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-women-be-allowed-to...

SamReidHughes 12y ago
> Some (fairly major) golf clubs don't let women play on their courses[1]. Actually those clubs don't let women become members of the club, but they do let them play on the course. (Specifically, Muirfield does.) Or in some cases (I'm not sure if it's a nonzero number now that the R&A golf club has had its vote) they don't own the course.
- nl 12y ago
  So that is confirmation that women don't have the right to join the club?
malandrew 12y ago
Will men be allowed to participate in Glassbreakers? It would be pretty easy to cite circumstances when women are excluded and men are excluded. For example, there are men's only colleges and women's only colleges, and the number of women's only institutions of higher education greatly outnumber the number of men's only institutions (The only one I can think of is Hampden Sydney in Virginia). Personally, I'm very anti-gender binary, so my purpose of commenting here is that it is intellectually dishonest to cite examples where women are excluded and conveniently omit examples where men are excluded.
- _tlf7 12y ago