3 ms·

The dumb ones are just as dangerous as the smart ones, and there are far more of them.

by csandreasen 12y ago

thissideup 12y ago
Can you provide a single example of these systems stopping an act of terrorism?
- csandreasen 12y ago
  They declassified four shortly after the Snowden revelations began: http://intelligence.house.gov/1-four-declassified-examples-more-50-attacks-20-countries-thwarted-nsa-collection-under-fisa-section http://intelligence.house.gov/1-four-declassified-examples-m...
  - thissideup 12y ago
    Thanks for sharing that information created and disseminated by the NSA itself[0][1][2]. Wasn't the original party line "over fifty"? No reason to think they would ever lie[3][4]. Elected US officials don't have access to enough information to verify those claims, guessing you don't either. [0] http://www.propublica.org/article/claim-on-attacks-thwarted-by-nsa-spreads-despite-lack-of-evidence http://www.propublica.org/article/claim-on-attacks-thwarted-... [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/nsa-attacks-thwarted_n_4148811.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/nsa-attacks-thwarte... [2] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-figures-foiled-terror-plots-misleading/?page=all http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-fig... [3] http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2013/06/fire_dni_james_clapper_he_lied_to_congress_about_nsa_surveillance.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/... [4] http://www.allgov.com/news/controversies/nsa-director-alexander-admits-he-lied-about-phone-surveillance-stopping-54-terror-plots-131007?news=851326 http://www.allgov.com/news/controversies/nsa-director-alexan...
    - csandreasen 12y ago
      The link was from the House Intelligence Committee, not the NSA. I'm sure they're basing a lot of that on information they got from the NSA, since these are, after all, NSA programs, but those four examples came from an entirely separate branch of the government. I'm curious if you bothered reading the three articles you cited, because the Washington Post article doesn't address those four cases at all, and the other two in that group you cited are, in fact, the exact same article published in two separate outlets. The arguments that the authors pose against three of the four cases is basically that it was possible to acquire the intelligence differently, not that the programs failed. The argument against the 4th case makes the argument that because Khalid Ouazzani was indicted for separate charges, the programs must not have worked. This article[1] gives more detail on the case, and explains why he wasn't indicted. The original "party line" was the following (from [2]): Gen. Keith Alexander said these programs enabled the United States to disrupt 54 "events," 42 of which "involved disrupted plots." Of those 54: 12 involved cases of material support to terrorists; 50 lead to arrests or detentions; 25 occurred in Europe; 11 were in Asia; 5 were in Africa; 13 had a homeland nexus. Forty-one of the terrorist activities did not involve events in the United States, Alexander said. Alexander went on to say that in 53 of the 54 cases, data collected under Section 702 provided the initial tip to "unravel the threat stream." He said that almost half of terrorist reporting comes from Section 702, ... When Sen Leahy questioned Gen Alexander on this, it was more of an indictment that the media was getting it wrong and inflating the count by including the 12 material support cases, and clarifying how many cases were the result of the bulk cell phone records program (one or two) versus PRISM (everything else). > Elected US officials don't have access to enough information to verify those claims, guessing you don't either. I'm guessing you've never sat in on a classified congressional intelligence committee briefing, and wouldn't have the information to back up your statement. [1] http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaedas-abandoned-ny-stock-exchange-plot-revealed/story?id=19431509&singlePage=true http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaedas-abandoned-ny-stock-e... [2] http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19175466-nsa-chief-says-surveillance-programs-helped-foil-54-plots http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19175466-nsa-chie...
      - thissideup 12y ago

The dumb ones are just as dangerous as the smart ones, and there are far more of them.

thissideup 12y ago

Can you provide a single example of these systems stopping an act of terrorism?

csandreasen 12y ago
They declassified four shortly after the Snowden revelations began: http://intelligence.house.gov/1-four-declassified-examples-more-50-attacks-20-countries-thwarted-nsa-collection-under-fisa-section http://intelligence.house.gov/1-four-declassified-examples-m...
- thissideup 12y ago
  Thanks for sharing that information created and disseminated by the NSA itself[0][1][2]. Wasn't the original party line "over fifty"? No reason to think they would ever lie[3][4]. Elected US officials don't have access to enough information to verify those claims, guessing you don't either. [0] http://www.propublica.org/article/claim-on-attacks-thwarted-by-nsa-spreads-despite-lack-of-evidence http://www.propublica.org/article/claim-on-attacks-thwarted-... [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/nsa-attacks-thwarted_n_4148811.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/nsa-attacks-thwarte... [2] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-figures-foiled-terror-plots-misleading/?page=all http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-fig... [3] http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2013/06/fire_dni_james_clapper_he_lied_to_congress_about_nsa_surveillance.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/... [4] http://www.allgov.com/news/controversies/nsa-director-alexander-admits-he-lied-about-phone-surveillance-stopping-54-terror-plots-131007?news=851326 http://www.allgov.com/news/controversies/nsa-director-alexan...
  - csandreasen 12y ago
    The link was from the House Intelligence Committee, not the NSA. I'm sure they're basing a lot of that on information they got from the NSA, since these are, after all, NSA programs, but those four examples came from an entirely separate branch of the government. I'm curious if you bothered reading the three articles you cited, because the Washington Post article doesn't address those four cases at all, and the other two in that group you cited are, in fact, the exact same article published in two separate outlets. The arguments that the authors pose against three of the four cases is basically that it was possible to acquire the intelligence differently, not that the programs failed. The argument against the 4th case makes the argument that because Khalid Ouazzani was indicted for separate charges, the programs must not have worked. This article[1] gives more detail on the case, and explains why he wasn't indicted. The original "party line" was the following (from [2]): Gen. Keith Alexander said these programs enabled the United States to disrupt 54 "events," 42 of which "involved disrupted plots." Of those 54: 12 involved cases of material support to terrorists; 50 lead to arrests or detentions; 25 occurred in Europe; 11 were in Asia; 5 were in Africa; 13 had a homeland nexus. Forty-one of the terrorist activities did not involve events in the United States, Alexander said. Alexander went on to say that in 53 of the 54 cases, data collected under Section 702 provided the initial tip to "unravel the threat stream." He said that almost half of terrorist reporting comes from Section 702, ... When Sen Leahy questioned Gen Alexander on this, it was more of an indictment that the media was getting it wrong and inflating the count by including the 12 material support cases, and clarifying how many cases were the result of the bulk cell phone records program (one or two) versus PRISM (everything else). > Elected US officials don't have access to enough information to verify those claims, guessing you don't either. I'm guessing you've never sat in on a classified congressional intelligence committee briefing, and wouldn't have the information to back up your statement. [1] http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaedas-abandoned-ny-stock-exchange-plot-revealed/story?id=19431509&singlePage=true http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaedas-abandoned-ny-stock-e... [2] http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19175466-nsa-chief-says-surveillance-programs-helped-foil-54-plots http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19175466-nsa-chie...
    - thissideup 12y ago