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Putin with his actions has brought a nasty war to the doorstep of the western world. His actions are perceived (both in the US and EU) as harmful to the stabili

by tr352 12y ago

Putin with his actions has brought a nasty war to the doorstep of the western world. His actions are perceived (both in the US and EU) as harmful to the stability and peace in the western world. A stability and peace that took huge amounts of effort and time to be built. Putins actions are believed to go against every principle on which this stability is based: democracy, cooperation, no redrawing of maps (especially not without consensus), no raking up of old claims and disputes, etcetera. Now, you may not agree with all this (you probably don't) but you should understand that lecturing on the selectiveness of moral outrage is not going to change the fact that this is how current events are perceived in the west.

osipov 12y ago
>Putin with his actions has brought a nasty war to the doorstep of the western world Putin's point of view is that US brought a violent and dangerous regime to the doorstep of the Russian world. Sounds like this isn't a starting point for a discussion. >Putins actions are believed to go against every principle on which this stability is based Putin's point of view is that Russia has no seat at the table that decides what are the global governance principles and what is the Western consensus. Further Western actions in Ukraine, Libya, Syria, Kosovo have been interpreted by Putin as harmful to stability and peace of the Russian world. Bottom line both West and Russia have different narratives of the past 10-20 years. The problem of the West is that it doesn't admit the validity of alternative narratives (i.e. unipolar world) while Russians understand both their own narrative and the Western narrative. Further, Russians are more effective than Westerners at winning the hearts and minds of those who don't belong to the "golden billion". I agree with you that ultimately this is a war of perceptions. I think it is one that the West is losing because the contradictions of its narrative are surfacing very quickly. Here's an example of where US is running scared of Russia's effectiveness in media space: http://rt.com/news/225543-rt-isis-us-broadcaster/ http://rt.com/news/225543-rt-isis-us-broadcaster/
- ajuc 12y ago
  Timothy Snyder (historian, famous for the "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" book) has nice speech about Russian-Ukrainian conflict, and he describes the philosophy Russian use in recent propaganda as "applied postmodernism". It (this "applied postmodernism") starts with the assumption that truth doesn't exists, and goes to prove that all possible narratives are as good as any other, so don't criticize us, let us do what we want in our backyard (including ex-soviet countries). You do the same in most of your comments. I highly recommend his speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw Starts with short history of Ukraine but it's very short and most western viewers need it to understand anything anyway. The fragment about applied postmodernism starts at 44:00 but it's worth listening through the whole thing - a lot of insights (and some that you probably will agree with, even if you won't share the conclusions).
  - osipov 12y ago
    The "truth doesn't exist" models has nothing to do with modern Russian philosophy. In fact the most common refrain today in Russia is based on Nevsky's quote of "God is truth". However, the same culture recognizes that while truth exists, it is fleeting, fragile, and is easily corrupted as soon at it becomes a subject of discourse within a society. The root of the conflict between West and Russia today is deeper than superficial slogans about who shot down MH17 or overthrew the Ukrainian government. West and Russia are fighting over whether the existing dollar based financial system will stay around or disappear. The virtual battles over Ukraine, Syria, and terrorism are just a sideshow to the deeper game.
    - tr352 12y ago
      > The "truth doesn't exist" models has nothing to do with modern Russian philosophy. But it does with Russian propaganda. See for example all the different unfounded and unrelated theories and insinuations that RT spread around after the MH17 downing, such as "Ukraine had BUKs too", "It was Ukraine thinking it was Putins presidential plane" and "why didn't Ukraine close off the airspace?" Now, is that serious journalism? The sole purpose of that was to confuse people and instill in them the idea that the truth about MH17 will never be known. > The root of the conflict between West and Russia today is deeper than superficial slogans about who shot down MH17 <snip> Many things can be said about what you're saying but I won't and I'll stop you here. 300 innocent civilians (mainly Dutch, Malaysian and British) died a horrible death due to this dirty war and evidence is overwhelming that it was done using Russian weapons by Russian or Russia-supported soldiers, in a dirty war that is fueled (at least materially) mainly by the Kremlin. Your claim that this is about "superficial slogans" is telling. Yes, many more people have died and yes, on the grand scale of things, 300 casualties is peanuts. But in the west these things are taken seriously and will not be forgotten. MH17 and the aftermath is one of the growing number of red lines that Putin crossed, and Russia will have to pay the price for this. Again, you may not agree but these red lines do exist and it's not up to you or Putin to decide that they don't. I feel sorry for the Russian people, but I have no sympathy for a Putin apologist who believes the MH17 event is about superficial slogans.
  - rdtsc 12y ago
vithlani 12y ago
The stupidity and short-shortsightedness of people's perceptions is astounding. A few Russians thieves play a high stakes games fight among themselves in Britain, some of them get killed and you figure that is of concern to the cause of "justice"? You think this late late inquiry is anything to do with "justice"? Why did they not have the inquiry straight after his death? Real justice would be served by putting warmongers like Tony Blair and his cabinet through a very rigorous inquiry on why they decided to bomb innocent Iraqis back to the stone age. Nasty war to the doorstep of the Western world my arse... how about the f who upended the whole of the Middle East with their invasions based on lies, deceit and unchecked greed? That is what is serving to radicalize a section of the British community and bringing problems to their doorsteps. The Muslim community can see that their coreligionists are being made to suffer, indeed are facing horrific death and eradication of their culture and way of life, just because a few white men want to make money. They can plainly see that the Chilcott Inquiry is just a whitewash and moreover was conceived as one from the start. And they don't want to be taken for fools. The Western world is in more danger from a few home grown radicals/terrorists/etc then from the Russian Bear and it's games within it's own backyard -- witness recent terror attacks in Western countries. As for Russians settling scores in Britain, why not simply refuse them entry? It's not like the British government is not aware of where the oligarchs and gangsters make their money before they allow them to settle in the UK -- but then that requires saying no to money that is dirty and immoral but very easy to get, something the British have always found hard to do.

by tr352 12y ago

osipov 12y ago

>Putin with his actions has brought a nasty war to the doorstep of the western world Putin's point of view is that US brought a violent and dangerous regime to the doorstep of the Russian world. Sounds like this isn't a starting point for a discussion. >Putins actions are believed to go against every principle on which this stability is based Putin's point of view is that Russia has no seat at the table that decides what are the global governance principles and what is the Western consensus. Further Western actions in Ukraine, Libya, Syria, Kosovo have been interpreted by Putin as harmful to stability and peace of the Russian world. Bottom line both West and Russia have different narratives of the past 10-20 years. The problem of the West is that it doesn't admit the validity of alternative narratives (i.e. unipolar world) while Russians understand both their own narrative and the Western narrative. Further, Russians are more effective than Westerners at winning the hearts and minds of those who don't belong to the "golden billion". I agree with you that ultimately this is a war of perceptions. I think it is one that the West is losing because the contradictions of its narrative are surfacing very quickly. Here's an example of where US is running scared of Russia's effectiveness in media space: http://rt.com/news/225543-rt-isis-us-broadcaster/ http://rt.com/news/225543-rt-isis-us-broadcaster/

ajuc 12y ago
Timothy Snyder (historian, famous for the "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" book) has nice speech about Russian-Ukrainian conflict, and he describes the philosophy Russian use in recent propaganda as "applied postmodernism". It (this "applied postmodernism") starts with the assumption that truth doesn't exists, and goes to prove that all possible narratives are as good as any other, so don't criticize us, let us do what we want in our backyard (including ex-soviet countries). You do the same in most of your comments. I highly recommend his speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw Starts with short history of Ukraine but it's very short and most western viewers need it to understand anything anyway. The fragment about applied postmodernism starts at 44:00 but it's worth listening through the whole thing - a lot of insights (and some that you probably will agree with, even if you won't share the conclusions).
- osipov 12y ago
  The "truth doesn't exist" models has nothing to do with modern Russian philosophy. In fact the most common refrain today in Russia is based on Nevsky's quote of "God is truth". However, the same culture recognizes that while truth exists, it is fleeting, fragile, and is easily corrupted as soon at it becomes a subject of discourse within a society. The root of the conflict between West and Russia today is deeper than superficial slogans about who shot down MH17 or overthrew the Ukrainian government. West and Russia are fighting over whether the existing dollar based financial system will stay around or disappear. The virtual battles over Ukraine, Syria, and terrorism are just a sideshow to the deeper game.
  - tr352 12y ago
    > The "truth doesn't exist" models has nothing to do with modern Russian philosophy. But it does with Russian propaganda. See for example all the different unfounded and unrelated theories and insinuations that RT spread around after the MH17 downing, such as "Ukraine had BUKs too", "It was Ukraine thinking it was Putins presidential plane" and "why didn't Ukraine close off the airspace?" Now, is that serious journalism? The sole purpose of that was to confuse people and instill in them the idea that the truth about MH17 will never be known. > The root of the conflict between West and Russia today is deeper than superficial slogans about who shot down MH17 <snip> Many things can be said about what you're saying but I won't and I'll stop you here. 300 innocent civilians (mainly Dutch, Malaysian and British) died a horrible death due to this dirty war and evidence is overwhelming that it was done using Russian weapons by Russian or Russia-supported soldiers, in a dirty war that is fueled (at least materially) mainly by the Kremlin. Your claim that this is about "superficial slogans" is telling. Yes, many more people have died and yes, on the grand scale of things, 300 casualties is peanuts. But in the west these things are taken seriously and will not be forgotten. MH17 and the aftermath is one of the growing number of red lines that Putin crossed, and Russia will have to pay the price for this. Again, you may not agree but these red lines do exist and it's not up to you or Putin to decide that they don't. I feel sorry for the Russian people, but I have no sympathy for a Putin apologist who believes the MH17 event is about superficial slogans.
- rdtsc 12y ago

vithlani 12y ago

The stupidity and short-shortsightedness of people's perceptions is astounding. A few Russians thieves play a high stakes games fight among themselves in Britain, some of them get killed and you figure that is of concern to the cause of "justice"? You think this late late inquiry is anything to do with "justice"? Why did they not have the inquiry straight after his death? Real justice would be served by putting warmongers like Tony Blair and his cabinet through a very rigorous inquiry on why they decided to bomb innocent Iraqis back to the stone age. Nasty war to the doorstep of the Western world my arse... how about the f who upended the whole of the Middle East with their invasions based on lies, deceit and unchecked greed? That is what is serving to radicalize a section of the British community and bringing problems to their doorsteps. The Muslim community can see that their coreligionists are being made to suffer, indeed are facing horrific death and eradication of their culture and way of life, just because a few white men want to make money. They can plainly see that the Chilcott Inquiry is just a whitewash and moreover was conceived as one from the start. And they don't want to be taken for fools. The Western world is in more danger from a few home grown radicals/terrorists/etc then from the Russian Bear and it's games within it's own backyard -- witness recent terror attacks in Western countries. As for Russians settling scores in Britain, why not simply refuse them entry? It's not like the British government is not aware of where the oligarchs and gangsters make their money before they allow them to settle in the UK -- but then that requires saying no to money that is dirty and immoral but very easy to get, something the British have always found hard to do.