4 ms·

So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of alternatives.

by jkot 12y ago

So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of alternatives. And hikomori also affects women at large scale. Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. But with internet everyone can see that ordinary western people live happy lives, without working themselves to death. I bet most hikimori just want to live western way. Go to nice college, have a few parties, eventually graduate and work 9-5 job. This is simply not an option in Japan, with its elite schools and work culture. 'Saving those people' without providing better alternative is a nonsense. They are already on path they are most happy with. Shaming and dressing it as mental illness is not going to work.

oxide 12y ago
great perspective.
semperfaux 12y ago
Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you consider that Japan's falling birthrate is at least partially a product of women tossing out their traditional roles. Yeah, that still leaves plenty of pressure on everyone, but it also sets a precedent, or at least enforces it. But no, most Japanese -- hikikomori or not -- do not "just want to live western way." The things you mention about that are largely the opposite of Japanese experience and expectation, and to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.
- Morgawr 12y ago
  >to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable. I don't completely agree with the post you're replying to, however this part is not so far fetched to believe. It doesn't matter much how often these people go outside, the Japanese media and culture is vastly focused on Anime (at least for these shut-in people, which are one of their target audience) and there has been a constant cross-pollination between the western and eastern cultures. A lot of people are living a more western 'make-believe' culture in Japan that easily goes against their traditional set of moral values. The Japanese world is changing and we're still seeing this major cultural shift, which very well might be the cause of this, or at least a catalyst. As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture. Obviously this is all my hypothesis, it might very well be unfound.
  - jimmies 12y ago
    > As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture. Hmm. I think you might be right. I can tell for me, as an Asian guy that came to the US about 6-7 years ago, I feel much more liberated and less stressful being in the US than in where I came from. It is exactly the make-believe culture that I have been exposed to thanks to the Internet that made me feel detached from the culture over there. Whether it is the main reason that people shut in, I can't tell. It is probably not the case (and it doesn't have to be) for the majority of my fellow friends who came to the US to do post-graduate studies (I came for undergrad after being a drop out). They often find that it is more stressful to live in the US where they don't have friends and their familiar environment.
- jkot 12y ago
  have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away Not adoption of new cultural norms, but corruption of existing cultural norms. I would offer parallel in how soviet block was disturbed by western culture. People were not so keen to build communism anymore,since they saw alternatives.
kalleboo 12y ago
> So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around There are plenty of jobs. In fact, there's a labor shortage. It's just that they're all shitty low-wage part time jobs with no security. Housing only seems to be a problem in Tokyo. My wife and I have been looking at apartments and there are tons of all sizes that have been open for months. Nothing at all like back home in Sweden where there's a 3 year waiting list even outside of Stockholm.
- VLM 12y ago
  "In fact, there's a labor shortage." This is their version of the American corporate reported STEM shortage. There's such a high demand and so few qualified employees that IBM has to lay off thousands a year, every year, for decades. If there's only "real jobs" for maybe 75% of the population, and 5% of the population decides to opt out leaving only 20% wanting real jobs and unable to get them, then its not really a problem other than freaking out westerners. It sounds brutal because it is, but if you have too many people for your economy, then people opting out and negative birth rates is both a symptom and the only possible (very long term) cure, not the problem itself.
  - lhl 12y ago
    There really is a labor shortage in Japan and has been for a long time. Govt data shows as much as a 1.1:1 job:job seeker ratio. However, the parent poster is right in that a big part of the problem is that most of the jobs are crap (part-time/temp, terrible pay). I see job-wanted signs in every other restaurant/cafe I pass, but honestly, I don't think most people consider part-time $10/hr at Yoshinoya a long-term career path. Still, you can take a look at the the search results for "japan labor shortage" yourself. https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+labor+shortage https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+labor+shortage Everything from construction, shipbuilding, airlines, and other kinds of skilled work are also feeling the heat. (other big parts of the problem are lots of skilled labor retiring every year, and terrible hiring, labor and super-xenophobic immigration policies)
- lhl 12y ago
  Even in Tokyo the residential vacancy rates are still very high - more than 10% depending on the ward, and more than 15% when looking at the burbs. Manhattan vacancy rates, as a point of reference, are around 2%. Prices apparently have been going up (attributed to the upcoming Olympics[1]), but honestly, when I walk around and look at rental prices, they seem pretty reasonable (damn cheap even) compared to say, Los Angeles (smaller units, but also cheaper per BR). You're definitely right about the rest of the country though, and outside of Tokyo, population has already peaked and is decreasing... For those w/ a burning interest in JP real estate, comprehensive market research is plentiful: https://www.nri.com/jp/opinion/r_report/pdf/japanreport2013_en_final.pdf https://www.nri.com/jp/opinion/r_report/pdf/japanreport2013_... http://www.savills.co.jp/research/japan-residential-research.aspx http://www.savills.co.jp/research/japan-residential-research... http://japanpropertycentral.com/ http://japanpropertycentral.com/ [1] http://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Property/Tokyo-property-prices-up-on-2020-Olympics-condo-demand http://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Property/Tokyo-property-price...

by jkot 12y ago

oxide 12y ago

great perspective.

semperfaux 12y ago

Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you consider that Japan's falling birthrate is at least partially a product of women tossing out their traditional roles. Yeah, that still leaves plenty of pressure on everyone, but it also sets a precedent, or at least enforces it. But no, most Japanese -- hikikomori or not -- do not "just want to live western way." The things you mention about that are largely the opposite of Japanese experience and expectation, and to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.

Morgawr 12y ago
>to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable. I don't completely agree with the post you're replying to, however this part is not so far fetched to believe. It doesn't matter much how often these people go outside, the Japanese media and culture is vastly focused on Anime (at least for these shut-in people, which are one of their target audience) and there has been a constant cross-pollination between the western and eastern cultures. A lot of people are living a more western 'make-believe' culture in Japan that easily goes against their traditional set of moral values. The Japanese world is changing and we're still seeing this major cultural shift, which very well might be the cause of this, or at least a catalyst. As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture. Obviously this is all my hypothesis, it might very well be unfound.
- jimmies 12y ago
  > As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture. Hmm. I think you might be right. I can tell for me, as an Asian guy that came to the US about 6-7 years ago, I feel much more liberated and less stressful being in the US than in where I came from. It is exactly the make-believe culture that I have been exposed to thanks to the Internet that made me feel detached from the culture over there. Whether it is the main reason that people shut in, I can't tell. It is probably not the case (and it doesn't have to be) for the majority of my fellow friends who came to the US to do post-graduate studies (I came for undergrad after being a drop out). They often find that it is more stressful to live in the US where they don't have friends and their familiar environment.
jkot 12y ago
have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away Not adoption of new cultural norms, but corruption of existing cultural norms. I would offer parallel in how soviet block was disturbed by western culture. People were not so keen to build communism anymore,since they saw alternatives.

kalleboo 12y ago

> So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around There are plenty of jobs. In fact, there's a labor shortage. It's just that they're all shitty low-wage part time jobs with no security. Housing only seems to be a problem in Tokyo. My wife and I have been looking at apartments and there are tons of all sizes that have been open for months. Nothing at all like back home in Sweden where there's a 3 year waiting list even outside of Stockholm.

VLM 12y ago
"In fact, there's a labor shortage." This is their version of the American corporate reported STEM shortage. There's such a high demand and so few qualified employees that IBM has to lay off thousands a year, every year, for decades. If there's only "real jobs" for maybe 75% of the population, and 5% of the population decides to opt out leaving only 20% wanting real jobs and unable to get them, then its not really a problem other than freaking out westerners. It sounds brutal because it is, but if you have too many people for your economy, then people opting out and negative birth rates is both a symptom and the only possible (very long term) cure, not the problem itself.
- lhl 12y ago
  There really is a labor shortage in Japan and has been for a long time. Govt data shows as much as a 1.1:1 job:job seeker ratio. However, the parent poster is right in that a big part of the problem is that most of the jobs are crap (part-time/temp, terrible pay). I see job-wanted signs in every other restaurant/cafe I pass, but honestly, I don't think most people consider part-time $10/hr at Yoshinoya a long-term career path. Still, you can take a look at the the search results for "japan labor shortage" yourself. https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+labor+shortage https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+labor+shortage Everything from construction, shipbuilding, airlines, and other kinds of skilled work are also feeling the heat. (other big parts of the problem are lots of skilled labor retiring every year, and terrible hiring, labor and super-xenophobic immigration policies)
lhl 12y ago
Even in Tokyo the residential vacancy rates are still very high - more than 10% depending on the ward, and more than 15% when looking at the burbs. Manhattan vacancy rates, as a point of reference, are around 2%. Prices apparently have been going up (attributed to the upcoming Olympics[1]), but honestly, when I walk around and look at rental prices, they seem pretty reasonable (damn cheap even) compared to say, Los Angeles (smaller units, but also cheaper per BR). You're definitely right about the rest of the country though, and outside of Tokyo, population has already peaked and is decreasing... For those w/ a burning interest in JP real estate, comprehensive market research is plentiful: https://www.nri.com/jp/opinion/r_report/pdf/japanreport2013_en_final.pdf https://www.nri.com/jp/opinion/r_report/pdf/japanreport2013_... http://www.savills.co.jp/research/japan-residential-research.aspx http://www.savills.co.jp/research/japan-residential-research... http://japanpropertycentral.com/ http://japanpropertycentral.com/ [1] http://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Property/Tokyo-property-prices-up-on-2020-Olympics-condo-demand http://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Property/Tokyo-property-price...