6 ms·

Why is it so difficult to find a Sr Dev/Lead into VP of Eng role with a Start-up

6 points by dogstraightup 12y ago

I'm working directly (I'm a headhunter) with/for a new start-up in the predictive analytics/gaming space in NYC. This company is well-funded (offering a competitive salary and sizable equity >2%). I know most people on here will be quick to bad mouth recruiters but I'm curious what people's thoughts are on this. One would think this is a relatively attractive position (Chance to manage all the technical architecture/responsibilities, build out your own engineering team, equity, competitive salary, cool product, etc.) Are 4-7 year iOS Devs/Mobile Architects looking to make a career transition that rare? I'm guessing most Engineers by that level are so well-taken care of or dedicated to their employers that they are unwilling to leave. It also seems the start-up space is quite saturated at this point and the "Exciting Start-up" Opportunity isn't quite as sexy as it was even a few years ago.

czbond 12y ago
Maybe they're looking at the wrong targets? I wouldn't in any way call someone with less than 7 years to be VP level - nor would I want them managing staff. That might translate to a beginning Director level at 7 years. But besides that - everyone's frames their opportunity as "Exciting Start-ups" that the phrase is numbing.
cyberpanther 12y ago
My theory is first while it is not rare, I think a majority of developers want to stay developers and not really take on that type of role. Just like Captain Kirk, we've rather be commanding a starship than be an admiral. However, I also think it is rare to find an opportunity like you state. Normally a person would grow into this role in a company. I've never seen some one looking for a VP with zero experience. So the people who would like that position probably aren't looking for it. I would love a role like you mention but never been offered anything like that. So part of your problem is just a search issue. The people are out there but you need to find out how to look for them.
dogstraightup 12y ago
Appreciate the comments. Its actually funny you mention that, as we were initially titling this role "CTO" which resulted in potential candidates who were just too hands-off by that point in their career. I've restructured the role and search to VP of Engineering just because there will be plenty of coding and hands-on work in the beginning which should ease up as the company hires more engineers. I'm thinking reworking my ideal profile to 8-12 year candidates that are Directors, Leads, or Architects who are still very hands-on. The tough part of the search is the intangibles, like finding someone who still has the motivation and passion of someone in their early/mid 20's.
- cyberpanther 12y ago
  You see you just cut off your whole market. There is no possible way to find someone in their 20's that meets your specs. Also it is really ageist. Look for what you want not the age.
  - mtmail 12y ago
    You've read that wrong (I did, too, the first time). OP was saying "passion of someone in their early/mid 20's." which is just a comparison, not an age requirement.
    - dogstraightup 12y ago
      Thx...thats correct.
- ajones 12y ago
  That's interesting. Many articles I've read state that the VP of Engineering tends to be more hands off, technically, than a CTO. Here's a couple great articles that I've pointed people to on a couple occasions: http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/want-to-know-difference-between-a-cto-and-a-vp-of-engineering/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/want-to-know-difference-b... https://medium.com/engineering-leadership/defining-roles-cto-and-or-vp-engineering-f1c7563643a3 https://medium.com/engineering-leadership/defining-roles-cto...
- codeonfire 12y ago
  Director, lead, and architect are all very different roles. Most directors I know have probably never written a line of code in their lives. Architects are people who stopped coding 5-10 years ago or are consultants that try to sell computer systems. Leads are people with a few years of experience out of college on exactly one project, probably all on one platform and one language who are trying to get out of engineering and into management as fast as possible. But don't worry, all those people would be glad to take your money. You are going to get vastly different outcomes. A director will immediately start spending money and hiring engineering managers. An architect will immediately start spending money on enterprise-y stuff and trying to hire engineers. A lead will be out of their narrow element and no longer be a capable lead. They will be stuck back in beginner land. All will try to fake it until they make it. You are looking for a top level engineer who can transition to management and then up three to four levels within a couple years. Such a person probably doesn't have any trouble getting their own funding at a percentage a bit higher than 2%.
eip 12y ago
If the position is in NYC then your competitive salary probably isn't as competitive as you think. The rate would have to be very high for me to consider moving to NYC.
greenyoda 12y ago
"I'm guessing most Engineers by that level are so well-taken care of or dedicated to their employers that they are unwilling to leave." Senior engineers leave their jobs all the time, but to get them to do so you have to offer them at least one of: more interesting work, more money (adjusted for local cost of living), or better working conditions (e.g., private offices for people who prefer them). And I'd agree with the commenters who said that people who are good developers are not necessarily interested in being managers, and especially not VPs, who are managers of managers of managers, and thus pretty far away from the programming action. After being a director for many years, I decided to go back to being a developer because it made me much happier to write code, not sit in meetings and deal with management issues (hiring, layoffs, performance reviews, fighting for staff raises, employees not getting along with each other, etc.). Also, there's no guarantee that a good developer would even make a good manager - it requires a whole different set of skills that include empathy, politics and diplomacy. Finding someone who has both programming and management skills would be exceedingly difficult. Better to hire the developer you need now, and if they show aptitude and interest in management, promote them. If not, hire a competent manager to oversee the growing department.
- dogstraightup 12y ago
  It appears that I incorrectly assumed most Senior Engineers will eventually become/strive to be VPs of Eng or IT Directors. Greenyoda, if you don't mind me asking, how many years were you a director before switching back to being a developer? Also, did you find it was a pretty seamless transition back to a hands-on coding, or were you playing catch up for a bit? Thx.
  - greenyoda 12y ago
    About 8 or 9 years. Getting back into coding wasn't hard, since I'd been doing some coding (mostly fighting fires so my team could concentrate on their main projects) while I was in management. Also, going into management wasn't really my idea - I was approached by upper management and accepted the promotion without really knowing what I was getting into. (I've heard the same story many times from other developers.)
  - 12y ago
hkarthik 12y ago
As someone that probably comes close to fitting the bill, here are the reasons I wouldn't apply. 1. You're in NYC, where everyone is currently getting obliterated by snow. For positions like this you should hire in spring or summer if you want to attract a candidate from warmer climates. 2. You want someone who can put in the hours of a 20-something but has the experience of a 40-something. To me, that says the management team wants to hire 2-3 people for the price of one. These expectations simply aren't realistic and anyone brought in will fail in one capacity or the other. 3. The company raised or earned enough to hire you to hire for this postion. So clearly they had someone fulfilling this role but it hasn't worked out. That implies a lot of interpersonal conflict on the management team (all too common in startups). I think if you start with hiring a VP level and focus on hiring a manager first, you will be better off. Who ever comes in should expect to promote from within and/or hire externally quickly. The management team needs to heavily involved in selling a prospective candidate on the role to alleviate any concerns about the interpersonal conflict.
pjungwir 12y ago
I'm a senior developer (but in web more than mobile). I freelance but often fall into a lead role when I'm part of a team. My thoughts: 1. When I read "competitive salary" or "market rate" in a job description I dismiss it as underpaid. I interpret it as "average salary," and I hope I bring more than average value. To me a competitive salary is one that competes with my freelance income. Tell me the range or I'm moving on. 2. Lots of good programmers are happy as leads but don't aspire to management. If a startup advertised a technical track with the same compensation as the management track, I bet they'd attract a ton of interest. Maybe this is an "architect" role, maybe even CTO (for certain definitions of CTO), but it's pretty rare. My favorite question to ask startups is what they offer career-wise. BigCos have a plan, but I've yet to meet a startup that could answer that question, except a hand-wavy "we're growing". They definitely don't have a tech-track answer. EDIT: 3. What kind of vacation do you offer? I see 2-3 weeks a lot and it's not interesting. When I read PTO I close the tab. When I read "unlimited vacation" I close the tab. If you can't offer an actually-competitive salary, you could try to compete here.
jgill 12y ago
Hi dogstraightup, This is just a suggestion, but try posting contact information here or a link to it so that potential candidates that have read your post could get on your radar.

6 points by dogstraightup 12y ago

czbond 12y ago

Maybe they're looking at the wrong targets? I wouldn't in any way call someone with less than 7 years to be VP level - nor would I want them managing staff. That might translate to a beginning Director level at 7 years. But besides that - everyone's frames their opportunity as "Exciting Start-ups" that the phrase is numbing.

cyberpanther 12y ago

My theory is first while it is not rare, I think a majority of developers want to stay developers and not really take on that type of role. Just like Captain Kirk, we've rather be commanding a starship than be an admiral. However, I also think it is rare to find an opportunity like you state. Normally a person would grow into this role in a company. I've never seen some one looking for a VP with zero experience. So the people who would like that position probably aren't looking for it. I would love a role like you mention but never been offered anything like that. So part of your problem is just a search issue. The people are out there but you need to find out how to look for them.

dogstraightup 12y ago

Appreciate the comments. Its actually funny you mention that, as we were initially titling this role "CTO" which resulted in potential candidates who were just too hands-off by that point in their career. I've restructured the role and search to VP of Engineering just because there will be plenty of coding and hands-on work in the beginning which should ease up as the company hires more engineers. I'm thinking reworking my ideal profile to 8-12 year candidates that are Directors, Leads, or Architects who are still very hands-on. The tough part of the search is the intangibles, like finding someone who still has the motivation and passion of someone in their early/mid 20's.

cyberpanther 12y ago
You see you just cut off your whole market. There is no possible way to find someone in their 20's that meets your specs. Also it is really ageist. Look for what you want not the age.
- mtmail 12y ago
  You've read that wrong (I did, too, the first time). OP was saying "passion of someone in their early/mid 20's." which is just a comparison, not an age requirement.
  - dogstraightup 12y ago
    Thx...thats correct.
ajones 12y ago
That's interesting. Many articles I've read state that the VP of Engineering tends to be more hands off, technically, than a CTO. Here's a couple great articles that I've pointed people to on a couple occasions: http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/want-to-know-difference-between-a-cto-and-a-vp-of-engineering/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/want-to-know-difference-b... https://medium.com/engineering-leadership/defining-roles-cto-and-or-vp-engineering-f1c7563643a3 https://medium.com/engineering-leadership/defining-roles-cto...
codeonfire 12y ago
Director, lead, and architect are all very different roles. Most directors I know have probably never written a line of code in their lives. Architects are people who stopped coding 5-10 years ago or are consultants that try to sell computer systems. Leads are people with a few years of experience out of college on exactly one project, probably all on one platform and one language who are trying to get out of engineering and into management as fast as possible. But don't worry, all those people would be glad to take your money. You are going to get vastly different outcomes. A director will immediately start spending money and hiring engineering managers. An architect will immediately start spending money on enterprise-y stuff and trying to hire engineers. A lead will be out of their narrow element and no longer be a capable lead. They will be stuck back in beginner land. All will try to fake it until they make it. You are looking for a top level engineer who can transition to management and then up three to four levels within a couple years. Such a person probably doesn't have any trouble getting their own funding at a percentage a bit higher than 2%.

eip 12y ago

If the position is in NYC then your competitive salary probably isn't as competitive as you think. The rate would have to be very high for me to consider moving to NYC.

greenyoda 12y ago

"I'm guessing most Engineers by that level are so well-taken care of or dedicated to their employers that they are unwilling to leave." Senior engineers leave their jobs all the time, but to get them to do so you have to offer them at least one of: more interesting work, more money (adjusted for local cost of living), or better working conditions (e.g., private offices for people who prefer them). And I'd agree with the commenters who said that people who are good developers are not necessarily interested in being managers, and especially not VPs, who are managers of managers of managers, and thus pretty far away from the programming action. After being a director for many years, I decided to go back to being a developer because it made me much happier to write code, not sit in meetings and deal with management issues (hiring, layoffs, performance reviews, fighting for staff raises, employees not getting along with each other, etc.). Also, there's no guarantee that a good developer would even make a good manager - it requires a whole different set of skills that include empathy, politics and diplomacy. Finding someone who has both programming and management skills would be exceedingly difficult. Better to hire the developer you need now, and if they show aptitude and interest in management, promote them. If not, hire a competent manager to oversee the growing department.

dogstraightup 12y ago
It appears that I incorrectly assumed most Senior Engineers will eventually become/strive to be VPs of Eng or IT Directors. Greenyoda, if you don't mind me asking, how many years were you a director before switching back to being a developer? Also, did you find it was a pretty seamless transition back to a hands-on coding, or were you playing catch up for a bit? Thx.
- greenyoda 12y ago
  About 8 or 9 years. Getting back into coding wasn't hard, since I'd been doing some coding (mostly fighting fires so my team could concentrate on their main projects) while I was in management. Also, going into management wasn't really my idea - I was approached by upper management and accepted the promotion without really knowing what I was getting into. (I've heard the same story many times from other developers.)
- 12y ago

hkarthik 12y ago

As someone that probably comes close to fitting the bill, here are the reasons I wouldn't apply. 1. You're in NYC, where everyone is currently getting obliterated by snow. For positions like this you should hire in spring or summer if you want to attract a candidate from warmer climates. 2. You want someone who can put in the hours of a 20-something but has the experience of a 40-something. To me, that says the management team wants to hire 2-3 people for the price of one. These expectations simply aren't realistic and anyone brought in will fail in one capacity or the other. 3. The company raised or earned enough to hire you to hire for this postion. So clearly they had someone fulfilling this role but it hasn't worked out. That implies a lot of interpersonal conflict on the management team (all too common in startups). I think if you start with hiring a VP level and focus on hiring a manager first, you will be better off. Who ever comes in should expect to promote from within and/or hire externally quickly. The management team needs to heavily involved in selling a prospective candidate on the role to alleviate any concerns about the interpersonal conflict.

pjungwir 12y ago

I'm a senior developer (but in web more than mobile). I freelance but often fall into a lead role when I'm part of a team. My thoughts: 1. When I read "competitive salary" or "market rate" in a job description I dismiss it as underpaid. I interpret it as "average salary," and I hope I bring more than average value. To me a competitive salary is one that competes with my freelance income. Tell me the range or I'm moving on. 2. Lots of good programmers are happy as leads but don't aspire to management. If a startup advertised a technical track with the same compensation as the management track, I bet they'd attract a ton of interest. Maybe this is an "architect" role, maybe even CTO (for certain definitions of CTO), but it's pretty rare. My favorite question to ask startups is what they offer career-wise. BigCos have a plan, but I've yet to meet a startup that could answer that question, except a hand-wavy "we're growing". They definitely don't have a tech-track answer. EDIT: 3. What kind of vacation do you offer? I see 2-3 weeks a lot and it's not interesting. When I read PTO I close the tab. When I read "unlimited vacation" I close the tab. If you can't offer an actually-competitive salary, you could try to compete here.

jgill 12y ago

Hi dogstraightup, This is just a suggestion, but try posting contact information here or a link to it so that potential candidates that have read your post could get on your radar.