14 ms·

Inside the world of longsword fighting

267 points by benbreen 12y ago

Mithaldu 12y ago
"it's a serious martial art" It may be a serious, and quite cool, sport. But i don't think something that has zero real world practicability or application falls under the banner of a "martial art".
- medecau 12y ago
  It's sitting on the top of the front page with 28 points. I've got no idea why I keep coming to HN looking for hacker news.
  - boothead 12y ago
    Well this is closer to the original meaning of "hacking" I guess :-)
    - logfromblammo 12y ago
      It is very "close to the metal".
      - nathan_long 12y ago
        It involves a lot of low-latency pings.
    - tomrod 12y ago
      Touche.
  - davidw 12y ago
    As someone who is more than happy to complain about (and flag!) political articles, this seems to qualify as something people just find 'interesting'. It's probably not flame bait, and isn't likely to retread tired old political or economic arguments. I don't happen to find this one particularly interesting, but am happy to just ignore it and vote other stuff up.
  - SeanDav 12y ago
    > I've got no idea why I keep coming to HN looking for hacker news. By "Hacker News" I presume you mean news that hackers find interesting? In which case, that is your answer.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Just for interest: why isn't this hacker news? What would you prefer to see on HN?
  - ht_th 12y ago
    Yes, I come here to read up on programming, ICT, and the information society, but one of the things I like most about aggregation-type sites like hackernews, reddit, and slashdot is to be surprised about intriguing thing I had no idea existed. If I imagine the internet usage of the visitors of hackernews as a enormous Venn diagram with each visitor his own circle, these type of articles allow me to look beyond the border of my own circle into the circles overlapping mine most, allowing me to expand my circle.
- archon 12y ago
  A martial art does not have to be directly usable in the real world to still be a martial art. Martial arts are about training the mind and body. Some of them happen to have practical defensive uses, others don't.
- lojack 12y ago
  The same could be said about Sumo, or any number of other varieties of martial arts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts
- ta_U7m4_x2 12y ago
  >i don't think something that has zero real world practicability or application falls under the banner of a "martial art". Tell that to aikido...
  - cm2012 12y ago
    Aikido has a handful of moves that are really useful in real life - but its true that most of them are too artsy to work in practice, especially on an opponent bigger than you.
    - bluedino 12y ago
      They work - it's just that your average practitioner hasn't mastered them yet.
      - ropman76 12y ago
        True. As someone who just started aikido last year there are some moves that I would not attempt in a dangerous situation do to lack of mastery. However I have done ikkyo so many times from various starts that it could be used very effectively in a tense situation. Hopefully I never have to find out :)
      - cm2012 12y ago
        Yeah, my dad is a black belt in Aikido, and actually used it to make the training program that all New York State court officers go through. Definitely some good techniques in there for fast control.
      - rodgerd 12y ago
        Utopias can never fail, they can only be failed.
  - renox 12y ago
    Thanks for the laugh. I recall thinking when watching an aikido lesson: okay the teacher (who had 20+ years of aikido and of other martial arts) could use his aikido knowledge in a fight, the other(1) definitely not! And it could even be dangerous if they believed that they could use their aikido knowledge to fight, not that this is unique to aikido.. 1: even those of who were black belt
- jonnathanson 12y ago
  A lot of martial arts are wildly impractical in 99.99% of everyday circumstances. The list includes almost all martial arts involving bladed weaponry, most martial arts involving canes or blunt instruments, and most of the classical, unarmed arts that a layperson would recognize. This is one of the major reasons why "practical" martial arts, such as Krav Maga, have become so popular in recent years. It doesn't mean the less practical arts are not "arts," or are somehow not "martial." The history of martial arts is a history of the militaries, weapons, circumstances, etc., that have given rise to the need for formalized combat styles throughout the world. In feudal Japan, for instance, it was probably a very helpful and practical thing to be well-versed in the art of the samurai sword. In present-day Japan, a bit less so. Some martial arts are practical in 2015. Some martial arts were practical in 1915, and some were practical in 1515. Circumstances change. The stuff people wear, or carry around with them everyday, or bring into a combat zone, change pretty quickly and dramatically. And of course, some martial arts have never really been practical at all, being used mainly for ceremony, discipline, and lifestyle.
  - bluedino 12y ago
    Ahhh, Krava Maga. You can't even practice it at anywhere near 100% like you an other martial arts. If you can't practice something to the fullest extent you can never perform it that way when the situation is required.
  - ensignavenger 12y ago
    "wildly impractical in 99.99% of everyday circumstances" I would hope so! If an average, everyday person needed to deploy martial in more than 1 out of every 10,000 of their normal, everyday circumstances, it would be a very sad state for humanity :)
    - jonnathanson 12y ago
      Well, of course. :) Putting aside the obvious, though, let's extend that 99.99% of "everyday circumstances" into what we'd call "highly unusual circumstances." A bar fight, for instance, or a mugging at knifepoint, or worse. Obviously, your best move in these circumstances is to avoid the fight altogether. But if you have no choice, then your knowledge of——even mastery of——many of the more prominent martial arts won't help you. There are many reasons why this is the case. I'll go over two or three of them. First, many of these martial arts were developed a very long while ago, in very different eras, with very different combatants in mind. Second, many of these martial arts are actually "staged" versions of real combat. If you're a karate master, for instance, you are mostly trained on how to fight combatants also using karate, who've been taught the same moves, the same stances, and the same patterns. Or, at least, you assume they've learned similar variants. Now, in a bar fight with a drunk, who's maybe got a few pounds on you, and is going to come out fighting irrationally and unpredictably, all of your karate staging, and your karate timing, and your karate pattern-seeking flies right out the window. Your mind will be addled by adrenaline. Your reflexes will be clumsy and jittery. You won't have time to think. If you've received very formal training, you may well panic and forget it. Modern arts are a lot less formal, because many of them were designed with modern fights in mind——be it a close grapple with an enemy soldier on a battlefield, or a standoff against an aggressive assailant in a dark alley. Full disclosure: I'm a 99-pound pencilneck who couldn't take your grandmother in a fist fight. I trained in karate to a fairly high level as a young teenager. To this day, I harbor no illusions that my karate will do anything for me, other than earn the occasional Daniel LaRusso joke.
- MrGando 12y ago
  This comment is so ignorant it makes me sad. What about Sumo and Kendo? (and many others). A quick Wikipedia quote: "Martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practices, which are practiced for a variety of reasons: self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, entertainment, as well as mental, physical, and spiritual development." I guess it's hard for you to understand the value of physical health, entertainment, mental, physical and spiritual development. This is something that people in these boards should value a lot more, and that can have a huge impact in your life. Sorry for the long reply, but your comment made me feel sad for you.
  - Mithaldu 12y ago
    I appreciated most comments that replied to my post. I made it clear that "i thought" that way, because i wasn't sure if my thoughts represented facts or not. Most of the other comments take the time to provide helpful information and educate me, which is cool and what i hoped for. Only you take the time to belittle me based off 2 sentences. In the same vein as you presume to proscribe to the rest of the board that they need to lead better lives, i ask you to please try and lead a more compassionate life. :)
    - MrGando 12y ago
      Hey there, My comment was -indeed- actually trying to be educative, at least it was my goal. In my phrase I should have stated that I was referring to many people that spend most of the day in boards like this one, I made a mistake and generalised in my statement. > "This is something that people in these boards should value a lot more" should be: > "This is something that a lot of people in these boards should value a lot more".
      - ta75757 12y ago
        I'm guessing the phrase the other poster was objecting to is "I guess it's hard for you to understand...".
        12y ago
- dagw 12y ago
  Unlike many martial arts practices today, there is a very real chance that most of the techniques in HEMA have been used extensively by real soldiers in real life and death combat. By any reasonable definition that should place it as far under the banner of martial arts as you can get.
- gatesphere 12y ago
  The longsword portion of the martial art may be impractical, but it's not studied in isolation. A good swordsman needs to have a damn good grasp on footwork, grappling, and wrestling. And disarms. All of those come in handy if you're being attacked and you're unarmed. I know a few (other) HEMA practicioners whose training has saved their lives...
enjo 12y ago
Cool! I was watching "Big Giant Swords" on the Discovery channel (a fantastic show) and they touched on competitive sword fighting last week. After seeing this, the whole thing makes a lot more sense.
jkot 12y ago
Sword fighting and middle age reenactment is quite big in Germany and Central Europe.
- probably_wrong 12y ago
  Interesting. Do you have any idea about where should I start looking? I'm in Germany now, and this looks fairly interesting.
  - elbows 12y ago
    The HEMA Alliance has a club finder which lists groups all over the US and Europe: http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=748 http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=748
jcburns 12y ago
...and it's a video. I look to the NYT for words on a page...I wish they wouldn't waste resources on stuff like this just for the "oh, it's cool" factor.
- SlipperySlope 12y ago
  NYT is a brand that seeks an audience.
- samspot 12y ago
  Only 26 words down is this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/sports/for-longsword-a-comeback-ages-in-the-making.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/sports/for-longsword-a-com...
rickdale 12y ago
Semi-Related to this is Lars Andersen taking archery to the next level by using forgotten skills he learned by looking at old art and various texts. Worth a watch! https://youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk https://youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
- agumonkey 12y ago
  I wish he'd share his knowledge with someone of better physical shape, such as : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8b1zWOgOKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8b1zWOgOKA https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchFreerunFamily/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchFreerunFamily/videos
pluma 12y ago
Interesting to see HEMA become increasingly popular. I've done European medieval combat re-enactment for a few years, so I'd like to expand on that one fighter's comment on the "thee" and "thou" thing. Generally, in the re-enactment community, there are three different focusses: one is authenticity, trying to replicate historical costumes, equipment and trades; another is entertainment of an audience that is rarely familiar with the subject matter; the third is combat, both as a martial art and as a form of group sports. The theatricals that seem to be popular at American "ren faires" and the medieval markets in various parts of Europe are strictly an expression of that second focus. Most re-enactors I've met are either into the first or third one (or a mix thereof). I see HEMA as a logical evolution of that third focus, though I personally find its emphasis on duelling and professional competitions (with all the restrictions that brings) less intriguing. I guess my point is that you can have medieval combat without the "thee" and "thou" parts outside of HEMA as well. It's very different from HEMA and certainly attracts a different kind of people, but it's still an alternative even if you couldn't care less about the theatrics.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- swimfar 12y ago
  HEMA=Historical European Martial Arts
  - pluma 12y ago
    Sorry, I though the term also came up in the video but I may have remembered that wrong.
flexie 12y ago
Looks like great fun! I doubt it has close resemblance with medieval long sword fighting, though :-) It must have been a lot slower fighting in leather, chainmail or plate armor than in this ultra light modern equipment. And, I assume a medieval fighter would take far smaller chances than these modern hobbyists knowing a counter blow could be (almost surely would be) fatal. Also, these guys fight one on one. But in a war you would have to guard yourself from blows and cuts not just from one enemy but from a crowd of enemy soldiers, left and right. The guy you were fighting might be using a sword or he might have another weapon. Maybe he was using a shield and you didn't. And if he had a sword, he might not have read the memo that it should be max 4 feet long. And fighting on some uneven, damp meadow he might be fighting uphill or downhill, and just keeping ones balance when striking or blocking would be hard compared to fighting indoor on a floor.
- gexla 12y ago
  > I doubt it has close resemblance with medieval long sword fighting, though :-) Probably closer to training than fighting. It may also be close to whatever sport they made of it back in the day. I'm comparing modern day martial arts. Pretty much all training and sport.
- arnsholt 12y ago
  I think it's very similar to kendo, the Japanese equivalent of fencing (sort of). Since kendo dates back to the 1800s or so, the sword is a bamboo stick, but like in HEMA points are awarded based on a couple of criteria: the strike has to be to one of the designated target zones, the strike has to be an intentional attack (that is, flailing wildly won't score you a point), and something called zanshin which is basically the same as what they call control in the video; does the attacker control the situation after a successful strike? But just like here, it's more a sport than faithful recreation of sword fighting since a) you're not gonna die if an attack fails and b) this is not battlefield conditions.
- gambiting 12y ago
  This video shows how people fought in full body plate armour using some 15-th century techniques, it's really surprising how flexible it is, you can even jump and do body rolls in it. It's definitely not as stiff as I always thought it was. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q&feature=youtu.be
hookey 12y ago
Inside the world of having a video player that doesn't let you adjust the volume.
- CurrentB 12y ago
  Yeah that is extremely annoying.
ktzar 12y ago
I'd start with a "You fight like a dairy farmer"
- simi_ 12y ago
  Hehe. > How appropriate. You fight like a cow. All of them (spoilers!): http://www.worldofmi.com/gamehelp/insults/mi1.php http://www.worldofmi.com/gamehelp/insults/mi1.php
benbreen 12y ago
The book illustration/art history blog BibliOdyssey has some great scans of a 16th century German longsword fighting manual called Der Fechtbuch that features some of the moves seen in this video. As well as some that really surprised me, like the opening illustration of two combatants fighting with reversed swords (hilt to hilt rather than blade to blade) which was apparently an actual technique used for bludgeoning. http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2012/06/der-fechtkampf.html http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2012/06/der-fechtkampf.html
- nacho_weekend 12y ago
  I remember an old post on /r/askhistorians about medieval fighting, and this article was referenced. There was even a video of two re-enactors emulating the style. It was vastly different than everything I'd come to expect from films, but it makes more sense when you think about it. Armor could be extremely effective for taking a direct sword hit, so the strategy was to almost wrestle your opponent up close and wedge the blade in between the plates, using both hands as leverage to slice.
- bane 12y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo
kbenson 12y ago
The documentary "Reclaiming the Blade" is about the semi-lost art of medieval and renaissance sword fighting, and is quite good. If this topic is even slightly interesting, you'll probably find the documentary entertaining.
pmlnr 12y ago
European here. We've been doing this for a while.
moron4hire 12y ago
Someone should use their clout within the sci-fi and geek worlds to run a kickstarter for a video game based on realistic sword fighting, then completely drop the ball!
- pluma 12y ago
  Too soon, mate. Too soon. I mean, I still have the t-shirt.
IndianAstronaut 12y ago
I think I found my new hobby.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
bane 12y ago
If anybody is interested, with the revival of HEMA, we're starting to end up with longsword players who are getting up there with good Kendo players. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGPCTMp2cw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGPCTMp2cw
- machinshin_ 12y ago
  damn. both of those guys are really good
jafaku 12y ago
The girl says "size shouldn't matter". Yeah right, because you are fighting for points.
- jafaku 12y ago
  Why the downvotes? This is swords and armours, not guns. Strength matters a lot. Since apparently you already live in fantasy land, why don't you try fighting "The Mountain"? Then tell me if size doesn't matter.
  - jessaustin 12y ago
    Have you actually trained in any of the sword disciplines? If you do, you'll find that technique, speed, grace, and mental toughness are more important than size or strength. Ceteris paribus, of course, size and strength are advantages, but you'll find that ceteris are rarely paribus. Swords are tools, and human beings using tools are capable of surprising things. I guarantee you, if you've played kendo at any decent dojo, you've had your ass kicked by an unassuming Japanese lady, or possibly her granddaughter. Even if you are like a Mountain, whatever that's supposed to mean.
    - jafaku 12y ago
      I don't want to be a dick, but have you actually had a real sword fight? Have you pierced someone's armor and make him bleed? Of course you haven't. The Mountain is a fictitious character from the popular TV series Game of Thrones. He uses a huge sword that you wouldn't be able to stop the same way you stop your fake swords brandished by girls. And I only dared to use him as an example because all of this is basically just that: a game, a fantasy. If I had to pick a guardian, I would choose a newbie sword man from the middle ages over your instructor (who has never had a real fight) any day. If you think Kendo is real, see what the guys from Iaido have to say about them: When they pick a real sword, they simply can't handle the weight, and the ones that can don't know how to actually cut stuff, because all they have learned is to win points in a game similar to tag.
      - 12y ago
pakled_engineer 12y ago
If you live in Vancouver there actually is a srs swordfighting school http://www.academieduello.com/ http://www.academieduello.com/
wtbob 12y ago
Sadly, it doesn't play in Chrome on Linux.
flarg 12y ago
This looks so great: I've been looking for a martial art to supplement my daily workout and give me some strength and agility - and some fun - this seems a lot more exciting than the Krav Maga classes I was looking at. Anyone know if there's a good place in the UK to do this?
brosky117 12y ago
I'm not the type to be into this kind of thing but that slow-motion kill was sick! He/She caught their opponent wide open AND had the presence of mind to instantly defend. That was legit.
- gknoy 12y ago
  That slow-motion was pretty awesome, I agree. You could tell that the fencer had practiced that to where retreating into a defensive guard was likely instinctice. :) When you look at many of the plates from earlier fencing manuals, such as those of Fabris or Capo Ferro (Italian fencers from the 1600s), many of the prime guards and ways you strike are done so that you are parrying in measure -- your blade and hilt are in a position that prevents the opponent's sword from connecting with your body. Many similar ideas are present in other swordmasters' treatises. Disclaimer: I'm a terrible fencer, but several of my friends are up to their eyeballs in historican fencing, so when I go home on holiday, I get an earfull of it. ;)
JamesHester 12y ago
Hi All, Fascinating to see this matter being discussed on here. By way of putting my cards on the table, I am a former curator from the Royal Armouries in England (most recently taking care of the RA collection at the Tower of London). I now live in Boston where I founded The School of Mars, teaching arming sword inspired from a variety of early manuals. A lot of the myths seem to have been adequately busted in this thread, for which I am thankful. But just to recap. - Actual swordplay, even in armour, was much faster than we tend to give it credit for. The weapons were properly designed (longswords usually no more than 3lbs. and balanced such that the blade's weight was compensated for by a heavy pommel), allowing them to fly in the hands of someone trained to use them. The armour, too, was custom made for each person, fitting them like a second skin, allowing for a wide range of movement and for the weight (usually 45-60lbs for a battle harness) to be spread throughout the whole body rather than being carried in one or two places. Some of our interpreters would demonstrate this by doing somersaults, cartwheels, and even yoga poses in their harness. - Yes, battlefield combat is a very different game from tournament style 'one on one' combat. Some techniques are more suited to one than the other. However, many of the techniques in the manuals are usable in both situations, and it is more a matter of the mindset and application of the individual. I agree that most of the HEMA community trains for tournament style combat, because this is mainly the way in which techniques are demonstrated and used in competition. It would be very interesting indeed for training regimes to work out systems of teaching how to apply these techniques to a battle environment. - Categorizing HEMA is going to depend largely on what your intentions are in studying it. If you want to attempt to accurately re-create the style of fighting from a particular master/manual, and restrict your research/practice to just the contents of said manual and any contextualising resources, then you are more in the realm of re-enactment. I am not yet convinced that the full realization of this is possible, given that we are dealing with texts of variable clarity and no living individuals from an unbroken lineage to verify our theories. That is not to say that there isn't a martial/competitive aspect to this particular type of re-enactment, but in this case one is dealing with a fundamentally 'dead' style, with a set end date and a finite number of techniques, unable to change after its period. - To make it a martial art requires that we allow the style to be organic, to grow with modern practitioners and teachers as everyone discovers variations of the style that suits them (much like the masters did themselves). This is the idea that I am attempting to bring about with School of Mars. The manuals form the foundation of the teachings, but as new insights from modern practitioners, who may have been exposed to other styles etc., the techniques adapt, or have new techniques or applications added on. We today have the benefit of access to a rich martial heritage that spans the globe, which the early masters did not. To some the thought of mingling them could be seen as heresy, but in my opinion doing so is simply part of reviving the martial arts of Europe in a modern setting. I suspect that the early masters would have leapt upon the opportunity to gain inspiration from other martial styles had they the ability. /rant. :-)
MagaManGo 12y ago
This is so freaking cool. They are much faster with the sword attacks than I would have imagined.
daktanis 12y ago
Hmm....may have to find somewhere to do this in Orlando.

267 points by benbreen 12y ago

"it's a serious martial art" It may be a serious, and quite cool, sport. But i don't think something that has zero real world practicability or application falls under the banner of a "martial art".

medecau 12y ago
It's sitting on the top of the front page with 28 points. I've got no idea why I keep coming to HN looking for hacker news.
- boothead 12y ago
  Well this is closer to the original meaning of "hacking" I guess :-)
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    It is very "close to the metal".
    - nathan_long 12y ago
      It involves a lot of low-latency pings.
  - tomrod 12y ago
    Touche.
- davidw 12y ago
  As someone who is more than happy to complain about (and flag!) political articles, this seems to qualify as something people just find 'interesting'. It's probably not flame bait, and isn't likely to retread tired old political or economic arguments. I don't happen to find this one particularly interesting, but am happy to just ignore it and vote other stuff up.
- SeanDav 12y ago
  > I've got no idea why I keep coming to HN looking for hacker news. By "Hacker News" I presume you mean news that hackers find interesting? In which case, that is your answer.
- DanBC 12y ago
  Just for interest: why isn't this hacker news? What would you prefer to see on HN?
- ht_th 12y ago
  Yes, I come here to read up on programming, ICT, and the information society, but one of the things I like most about aggregation-type sites like hackernews, reddit, and slashdot is to be surprised about intriguing thing I had no idea existed. If I imagine the internet usage of the visitors of hackernews as a enormous Venn diagram with each visitor his own circle, these type of articles allow me to look beyond the border of my own circle into the circles overlapping mine most, allowing me to expand my circle.
archon 12y ago
A martial art does not have to be directly usable in the real world to still be a martial art. Martial arts are about training the mind and body. Some of them happen to have practical defensive uses, others don't.
lojack 12y ago
The same could be said about Sumo, or any number of other varieties of martial arts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts
ta_U7m4_x2 12y ago
>i don't think something that has zero real world practicability or application falls under the banner of a "martial art". Tell that to aikido...
- cm2012 12y ago
  Aikido has a handful of moves that are really useful in real life - but its true that most of them are too artsy to work in practice, especially on an opponent bigger than you.
  - bluedino 12y ago
    They work - it's just that your average practitioner hasn't mastered them yet.
    - ropman76 12y ago
      True. As someone who just started aikido last year there are some moves that I would not attempt in a dangerous situation do to lack of mastery. However I have done ikkyo so many times from various starts that it could be used very effectively in a tense situation. Hopefully I never have to find out :)
    - cm2012 12y ago
      Yeah, my dad is a black belt in Aikido, and actually used it to make the training program that all New York State court officers go through. Definitely some good techniques in there for fast control.
    - rodgerd 12y ago
      Utopias can never fail, they can only be failed.
- renox 12y ago
  Thanks for the laugh. I recall thinking when watching an aikido lesson: okay the teacher (who had 20+ years of aikido and of other martial arts) could use his aikido knowledge in a fight, the other(1) definitely not! And it could even be dangerous if they believed that they could use their aikido knowledge to fight, not that this is unique to aikido.. 1: even those of who were black belt
jonnathanson 12y ago
A lot of martial arts are wildly impractical in 99.99% of everyday circumstances. The list includes almost all martial arts involving bladed weaponry, most martial arts involving canes or blunt instruments, and most of the classical, unarmed arts that a layperson would recognize. This is one of the major reasons why "practical" martial arts, such as Krav Maga, have become so popular in recent years. It doesn't mean the less practical arts are not "arts," or are somehow not "martial." The history of martial arts is a history of the militaries, weapons, circumstances, etc., that have given rise to the need for formalized combat styles throughout the world. In feudal Japan, for instance, it was probably a very helpful and practical thing to be well-versed in the art of the samurai sword. In present-day Japan, a bit less so. Some martial arts are practical in 2015. Some martial arts were practical in 1915, and some were practical in 1515. Circumstances change. The stuff people wear, or carry around with them everyday, or bring into a combat zone, change pretty quickly and dramatically. And of course, some martial arts have never really been practical at all, being used mainly for ceremony, discipline, and lifestyle.
- bluedino 12y ago
  Ahhh, Krava Maga. You can't even practice it at anywhere near 100% like you an other martial arts. If you can't practice something to the fullest extent you can never perform it that way when the situation is required.
- ensignavenger 12y ago
  "wildly impractical in 99.99% of everyday circumstances" I would hope so! If an average, everyday person needed to deploy martial in more than 1 out of every 10,000 of their normal, everyday circumstances, it would be a very sad state for humanity :)
  - jonnathanson 12y ago
    Well, of course. :) Putting aside the obvious, though, let's extend that 99.99% of "everyday circumstances" into what we'd call "highly unusual circumstances." A bar fight, for instance, or a mugging at knifepoint, or worse. Obviously, your best move in these circumstances is to avoid the fight altogether. But if you have no choice, then your knowledge of——even mastery of——many of the more prominent martial arts won't help you. There are many reasons why this is the case. I'll go over two or three of them. First, many of these martial arts were developed a very long while ago, in very different eras, with very different combatants in mind. Second, many of these martial arts are actually "staged" versions of real combat. If you're a karate master, for instance, you are mostly trained on how to fight combatants also using karate, who've been taught the same moves, the same stances, and the same patterns. Or, at least, you assume they've learned similar variants. Now, in a bar fight with a drunk, who's maybe got a few pounds on you, and is going to come out fighting irrationally and unpredictably, all of your karate staging, and your karate timing, and your karate pattern-seeking flies right out the window. Your mind will be addled by adrenaline. Your reflexes will be clumsy and jittery. You won't have time to think. If you've received very formal training, you may well panic and forget it. Modern arts are a lot less formal, because many of them were designed with modern fights in mind——be it a close grapple with an enemy soldier on a battlefield, or a standoff against an aggressive assailant in a dark alley. Full disclosure: I'm a 99-pound pencilneck who couldn't take your grandmother in a fist fight. I trained in karate to a fairly high level as a young teenager. To this day, I harbor no illusions that my karate will do anything for me, other than earn the occasional Daniel LaRusso joke.
MrGando 12y ago
This comment is so ignorant it makes me sad. What about Sumo and Kendo? (and many others). A quick Wikipedia quote: "Martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practices, which are practiced for a variety of reasons: self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, entertainment, as well as mental, physical, and spiritual development." I guess it's hard for you to understand the value of physical health, entertainment, mental, physical and spiritual development. This is something that people in these boards should value a lot more, and that can have a huge impact in your life. Sorry for the long reply, but your comment made me feel sad for you.
- Mithaldu 12y ago
  I appreciated most comments that replied to my post. I made it clear that "i thought" that way, because i wasn't sure if my thoughts represented facts or not. Most of the other comments take the time to provide helpful information and educate me, which is cool and what i hoped for. Only you take the time to belittle me based off 2 sentences. In the same vein as you presume to proscribe to the rest of the board that they need to lead better lives, i ask you to please try and lead a more compassionate life. :)
  - MrGando 12y ago
    Hey there, My comment was -indeed- actually trying to be educative, at least it was my goal. In my phrase I should have stated that I was referring to many people that spend most of the day in boards like this one, I made a mistake and generalised in my statement. > "This is something that people in these boards should value a lot more" should be: > "This is something that a lot of people in these boards should value a lot more".
    - ta75757 12y ago
      I'm guessing the phrase the other poster was objecting to is "I guess it's hard for you to understand...".
      - 12y ago
dagw 12y ago
Unlike many martial arts practices today, there is a very real chance that most of the techniques in HEMA have been used extensively by real soldiers in real life and death combat. By any reasonable definition that should place it as far under the banner of martial arts as you can get.
gatesphere 12y ago
The longsword portion of the martial art may be impractical, but it's not studied in isolation. A good swordsman needs to have a damn good grasp on footwork, grappling, and wrestling. And disarms. All of those come in handy if you're being attacked and you're unarmed. I know a few (other) HEMA practicioners whose training has saved their lives...

enjo 12y ago

Cool! I was watching "Big Giant Swords" on the Discovery channel (a fantastic show) and they touched on competitive sword fighting last week. After seeing this, the whole thing makes a lot more sense.

jkot 12y ago

Sword fighting and middle age reenactment is quite big in Germany and Central Europe.

probably_wrong 12y ago
Interesting. Do you have any idea about where should I start looking? I'm in Germany now, and this looks fairly interesting.
- elbows 12y ago
  The HEMA Alliance has a club finder which lists groups all over the US and Europe: http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=748 http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=748

jcburns 12y ago

...and it's a video. I look to the NYT for words on a page...I wish they wouldn't waste resources on stuff like this just for the "oh, it's cool" factor.

SlipperySlope 12y ago
NYT is a brand that seeks an audience.
samspot 12y ago
Only 26 words down is this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/sports/for-longsword-a-comeback-ages-in-the-making.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/sports/for-longsword-a-com...

rickdale 12y ago

Semi-Related to this is Lars Andersen taking archery to the next level by using forgotten skills he learned by looking at old art and various texts. Worth a watch! https://youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk https://youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

agumonkey 12y ago
I wish he'd share his knowledge with someone of better physical shape, such as : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8b1zWOgOKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8b1zWOgOKA https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchFreerunFamily/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchFreerunFamily/videos

pluma 12y ago

Interesting to see HEMA become increasingly popular. I've done European medieval combat re-enactment for a few years, so I'd like to expand on that one fighter's comment on the "thee" and "thou" thing. Generally, in the re-enactment community, there are three different focusses: one is authenticity, trying to replicate historical costumes, equipment and trades; another is entertainment of an audience that is rarely familiar with the subject matter; the third is combat, both as a martial art and as a form of group sports. The theatricals that seem to be popular at American "ren faires" and the medieval markets in various parts of Europe are strictly an expression of that second focus. Most re-enactors I've met are either into the first or third one (or a mix thereof). I see HEMA as a logical evolution of that third focus, though I personally find its emphasis on duelling and professional competitions (with all the restrictions that brings) less intriguing. I guess my point is that you can have medieval combat without the "thee" and "thou" parts outside of HEMA as well. It's very different from HEMA and certainly attracts a different kind of people, but it's still an alternative even if you couldn't care less about the theatrics.

deleted 12y ago
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swimfar 12y ago
HEMA=Historical European Martial Arts
- pluma 12y ago
  Sorry, I though the term also came up in the video but I may have remembered that wrong.

flexie 12y ago

Looks like great fun! I doubt it has close resemblance with medieval long sword fighting, though :-) It must have been a lot slower fighting in leather, chainmail or plate armor than in this ultra light modern equipment. And, I assume a medieval fighter would take far smaller chances than these modern hobbyists knowing a counter blow could be (almost surely would be) fatal. Also, these guys fight one on one. But in a war you would have to guard yourself from blows and cuts not just from one enemy but from a crowd of enemy soldiers, left and right. The guy you were fighting might be using a sword or he might have another weapon. Maybe he was using a shield and you didn't. And if he had a sword, he might not have read the memo that it should be max 4 feet long. And fighting on some uneven, damp meadow he might be fighting uphill or downhill, and just keeping ones balance when striking or blocking would be hard compared to fighting indoor on a floor.

gexla 12y ago
> I doubt it has close resemblance with medieval long sword fighting, though :-) Probably closer to training than fighting. It may also be close to whatever sport they made of it back in the day. I'm comparing modern day martial arts. Pretty much all training and sport.
arnsholt 12y ago
I think it's very similar to kendo, the Japanese equivalent of fencing (sort of). Since kendo dates back to the 1800s or so, the sword is a bamboo stick, but like in HEMA points are awarded based on a couple of criteria: the strike has to be to one of the designated target zones, the strike has to be an intentional attack (that is, flailing wildly won't score you a point), and something called zanshin which is basically the same as what they call control in the video; does the attacker control the situation after a successful strike? But just like here, it's more a sport than faithful recreation of sword fighting since a) you're not gonna die if an attack fails and b) this is not battlefield conditions.
gambiting 12y ago
This video shows how people fought in full body plate armour using some 15-th century techniques, it's really surprising how flexible it is, you can even jump and do body rolls in it. It's definitely not as stiff as I always thought it was. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q&feature=youtu.be

hookey 12y ago

Inside the world of having a video player that doesn't let you adjust the volume.

CurrentB 12y ago
Yeah that is extremely annoying.

ktzar 12y ago

I'd start with a "You fight like a dairy farmer"

simi_ 12y ago
Hehe. > How appropriate. You fight like a cow. All of them (spoilers!): http://www.worldofmi.com/gamehelp/insults/mi1.php http://www.worldofmi.com/gamehelp/insults/mi1.php

benbreen 12y ago

The book illustration/art history blog BibliOdyssey has some great scans of a 16th century German longsword fighting manual called Der Fechtbuch that features some of the moves seen in this video. As well as some that really surprised me, like the opening illustration of two combatants fighting with reversed swords (hilt to hilt rather than blade to blade) which was apparently an actual technique used for bludgeoning. http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2012/06/der-fechtkampf.html http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2012/06/der-fechtkampf.html

nacho_weekend 12y ago
I remember an old post on /r/askhistorians about medieval fighting, and this article was referenced. There was even a video of two re-enactors emulating the style. It was vastly different than everything I'd come to expect from films, but it makes more sense when you think about it. Armor could be extremely effective for taking a direct sword hit, so the strategy was to almost wrestle your opponent up close and wedge the blade in between the plates, using both hands as leverage to slice.
bane 12y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo

kbenson 12y ago

The documentary "Reclaiming the Blade" is about the semi-lost art of medieval and renaissance sword fighting, and is quite good. If this topic is even slightly interesting, you'll probably find the documentary entertaining.

pmlnr 12y ago

European here. We've been doing this for a while.

moron4hire 12y ago

Someone should use their clout within the sci-fi and geek worlds to run a kickstarter for a video game based on realistic sword fighting, then completely drop the ball!

pluma 12y ago
Too soon, mate. Too soon. I mean, I still have the t-shirt.

IndianAstronaut 12y ago

I think I found my new hobby.

deleted 12y ago

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bane 12y ago

If anybody is interested, with the revival of HEMA, we're starting to end up with longsword players who are getting up there with good Kendo players. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGPCTMp2cw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGPCTMp2cw

machinshin_ 12y ago
damn. both of those guys are really good

jafaku 12y ago

The girl says "size shouldn't matter". Yeah right, because you are fighting for points.

jafaku 12y ago
Why the downvotes? This is swords and armours, not guns. Strength matters a lot. Since apparently you already live in fantasy land, why don't you try fighting "The Mountain"? Then tell me if size doesn't matter.
- jessaustin 12y ago
  Have you actually trained in any of the sword disciplines? If you do, you'll find that technique, speed, grace, and mental toughness are more important than size or strength. Ceteris paribus, of course, size and strength are advantages, but you'll find that ceteris are rarely paribus. Swords are tools, and human beings using tools are capable of surprising things. I guarantee you, if you've played kendo at any decent dojo, you've had your ass kicked by an unassuming Japanese lady, or possibly her granddaughter. Even if you are like a Mountain, whatever that's supposed to mean.
  - jafaku 12y ago
    I don't want to be a dick, but have you actually had a real sword fight? Have you pierced someone's armor and make him bleed? Of course you haven't. The Mountain is a fictitious character from the popular TV series Game of Thrones. He uses a huge sword that you wouldn't be able to stop the same way you stop your fake swords brandished by girls. And I only dared to use him as an example because all of this is basically just that: a game, a fantasy. If I had to pick a guardian, I would choose a newbie sword man from the middle ages over your instructor (who has never had a real fight) any day. If you think Kendo is real, see what the guys from Iaido have to say about them: When they pick a real sword, they simply can't handle the weight, and the ones that can don't know how to actually cut stuff, because all they have learned is to win points in a game similar to tag.
    - 12y ago

pakled_engineer 12y ago

If you live in Vancouver there actually is a srs swordfighting school http://www.academieduello.com/ http://www.academieduello.com/

wtbob 12y ago

Sadly, it doesn't play in Chrome on Linux.

flarg 12y ago

This looks so great: I've been looking for a martial art to supplement my daily workout and give me some strength and agility - and some fun - this seems a lot more exciting than the Krav Maga classes I was looking at. Anyone know if there's a good place in the UK to do this?

brosky117 12y ago

I'm not the type to be into this kind of thing but that slow-motion kill was sick! He/She caught their opponent wide open AND had the presence of mind to instantly defend. That was legit.

gknoy 12y ago
That slow-motion was pretty awesome, I agree. You could tell that the fencer had practiced that to where retreating into a defensive guard was likely instinctice. :) When you look at many of the plates from earlier fencing manuals, such as those of Fabris or Capo Ferro (Italian fencers from the 1600s), many of the prime guards and ways you strike are done so that you are parrying in measure -- your blade and hilt are in a position that prevents the opponent's sword from connecting with your body. Many similar ideas are present in other swordmasters' treatises. Disclaimer: I'm a terrible fencer, but several of my friends are up to their eyeballs in historican fencing, so when I go home on holiday, I get an earfull of it. ;)

JamesHester 12y ago

Hi All, Fascinating to see this matter being discussed on here. By way of putting my cards on the table, I am a former curator from the Royal Armouries in England (most recently taking care of the RA collection at the Tower of London). I now live in Boston where I founded The School of Mars, teaching arming sword inspired from a variety of early manuals. A lot of the myths seem to have been adequately busted in this thread, for which I am thankful. But just to recap. - Actual swordplay, even in armour, was much faster than we tend to give it credit for. The weapons were properly designed (longswords usually no more than 3lbs. and balanced such that the blade's weight was compensated for by a heavy pommel), allowing them to fly in the hands of someone trained to use them. The armour, too, was custom made for each person, fitting them like a second skin, allowing for a wide range of movement and for the weight (usually 45-60lbs for a battle harness) to be spread throughout the whole body rather than being carried in one or two places. Some of our interpreters would demonstrate this by doing somersaults, cartwheels, and even yoga poses in their harness. - Yes, battlefield combat is a very different game from tournament style 'one on one' combat. Some techniques are more suited to one than the other. However, many of the techniques in the manuals are usable in both situations, and it is more a matter of the mindset and application of the individual. I agree that most of the HEMA community trains for tournament style combat, because this is mainly the way in which techniques are demonstrated and used in competition. It would be very interesting indeed for training regimes to work out systems of teaching how to apply these techniques to a battle environment. - Categorizing HEMA is going to depend largely on what your intentions are in studying it. If you want to attempt to accurately re-create the style of fighting from a particular master/manual, and restrict your research/practice to just the contents of said manual and any contextualising resources, then you are more in the realm of re-enactment. I am not yet convinced that the full realization of this is possible, given that we are dealing with texts of variable clarity and no living individuals from an unbroken lineage to verify our theories. That is not to say that there isn't a martial/competitive aspect to this particular type of re-enactment, but in this case one is dealing with a fundamentally 'dead' style, with a set end date and a finite number of techniques, unable to change after its period. - To make it a martial art requires that we allow the style to be organic, to grow with modern practitioners and teachers as everyone discovers variations of the style that suits them (much like the masters did themselves). This is the idea that I am attempting to bring about with School of Mars. The manuals form the foundation of the teachings, but as new insights from modern practitioners, who may have been exposed to other styles etc., the techniques adapt, or have new techniques or applications added on. We today have the benefit of access to a rich martial heritage that spans the globe, which the early masters did not. To some the thought of mingling them could be seen as heresy, but in my opinion doing so is simply part of reviving the martial arts of Europe in a modern setting. I suspect that the early masters would have leapt upon the opportunity to gain inspiration from other martial styles had they the ability. /rant. :-)

MagaManGo 12y ago

This is so freaking cool. They are much faster with the sword attacks than I would have imagined.

daktanis 12y ago

Hmm....may have to find somewhere to do this in Orlando.