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You'd be correct if the simple assumptions of fundamental economics applied, but they don't: Most immigrants are _not_ "people doing valuable work" - in fact,

You'd be correct if the simple assumptions of fundamental economics applied, but they don't: Most immigrants are _not_ "people doing valuable work" - in fact, most are at hairdresser level or below. Few Nobels there - more likely B ship passengers in the Ark. Most immigrants do not earn "appropriate compensation". Survey some H1-B slaves (among the highest paid immigrants) for their opinion. It is quite simple: new immigrants take jobs from US citizens by working for less. Businesses that need workers like that; US citizens who want jobs do not. The situation is obvious all around you. Don't try to confuse the issue by making it more complex than it is. Certainly cheap immigrant workers lower costs for business and "contributes positively to the economy", but don't try to cover over the fact that they push current workers out of jobs, causing dislocation and social upheaval. US citizens suffer, non-citizen immigrant workers benefit, business benefits. Which of those three groups cast ballots in an election? Is there supposed to be any benefit to being a citizen of the country you inhabit? You're effectively saying "No." and I disagree.

pfedor 17y ago
Which part of your argument cannot be used to argue against the use of machines instead of physical labor? The machines cost less, ergo they push current workers out of jobs, US citizens suffer, businesses benefit. Do you want to call the industrial revolution off?
- giardini 17y ago
  Your statement is correct. Technology does cause the same problems as cheap labor. But it doesn't change what I said. We're not talking about replacing men with machines, We're addressing the simple substitution of an inexpensive non-citizen for a more expensive citizen in a job. There apparently aren't machines available for these jobs so business seek out the cheapest human beings instead. If we didn't have our current political structure which attaches certain rights and privileges to citizenship then the USA would be like China where workers are treated like light bulbs. Once machines can do everything a man can your argument will be pertinent. But remember that, should the time come that machines are the full equal of men, you may need to answer certain questions such as "Does this machine have civil rights or a vote in society?", "Can I trust this machine to do this job?", and "What sort of salary, if any, should I pay a machine for doing this job?". That is topic for another discussion and a real can of worms that I don't feel like opening right now.
InclinedPlane 17y ago
Your elitism is astounding. Even minimum wage work is valuable work. Just because someone earns below the median wage doesn't mean they are valueless to the economy or to society. You again seem to miss the simple fact that jobs do not fall out of the sky from some deity. The value of a job is in the work done, people doing work adds value to the economy for everyone. Even if people earn less than others for that work. As to your question whether there is no benefit to being a citizen of the country you inhabit, that's tangential to the topic at hand. Whether a job is being done by a legal or illegal immigrant, or whether it's being done by automation that earns no wage at all it's ignorant, backwards, and harmful to label this as "stealing jobs". When women entered the workforce they did not "steal" jobs from men, though many feared this, they contributed to the economy by doing work. The western world is now significantly richer per capita because of women in the workforce. Immigrants "stealing" jobs, women "stealing" jobs, and automation "destroying" jobs are fundamentally responsible for the runaway generation of wealth in the US over its history.

pfedor 17y ago

Which part of your argument cannot be used to argue against the use of machines instead of physical labor? The machines cost less, ergo they push current workers out of jobs, US citizens suffer, businesses benefit. Do you want to call the industrial revolution off?

giardini 17y ago
Your statement is correct. Technology does cause the same problems as cheap labor. But it doesn't change what I said. We're not talking about replacing men with machines, We're addressing the simple substitution of an inexpensive non-citizen for a more expensive citizen in a job. There apparently aren't machines available for these jobs so business seek out the cheapest human beings instead. If we didn't have our current political structure which attaches certain rights and privileges to citizenship then the USA would be like China where workers are treated like light bulbs. Once machines can do everything a man can your argument will be pertinent. But remember that, should the time come that machines are the full equal of men, you may need to answer certain questions such as "Does this machine have civil rights or a vote in society?", "Can I trust this machine to do this job?", and "What sort of salary, if any, should I pay a machine for doing this job?". That is topic for another discussion and a real can of worms that I don't feel like opening right now.

InclinedPlane 17y ago

Your elitism is astounding. Even minimum wage work is valuable work. Just because someone earns below the median wage doesn't mean they are valueless to the economy or to society. You again seem to miss the simple fact that jobs do not fall out of the sky from some deity. The value of a job is in the work done, people doing work adds value to the economy for everyone. Even if people earn less than others for that work. As to your question whether there is no benefit to being a citizen of the country you inhabit, that's tangential to the topic at hand. Whether a job is being done by a legal or illegal immigrant, or whether it's being done by automation that earns no wage at all it's ignorant, backwards, and harmful to label this as "stealing jobs". When women entered the workforce they did not "steal" jobs from men, though many feared this, they contributed to the economy by doing work. The western world is now significantly richer per capita because of women in the workforce. Immigrants "stealing" jobs, women "stealing" jobs, and automation "destroying" jobs are fundamentally responsible for the runaway generation of wealth in the US over its history.