4 ms·

"There is no hatred of women" is like saying "There is no hatred of [insert other group here]" If you want to find them, look for the individuals who repeatedl

by Squarel 12y ago

"There is no hatred of women" is like saying "There is no hatred of [insert other group here]" If you want to find them, look for the individuals who repeatedly post derogatory comments and hateful comments under any post made by a female.

fnef 12y ago
I challenge the notion that online trolls are genuinely hateful, almost regardless of their target. They're just sadists who find pleasure in other's suffering. I think it's horrible and these people deserve rehabilitative punishment by law, but it's silly to label it as hate, or, when the target happens to be female, misogyny.
- mercurial 12y ago
  Considering that it appears to disproportionally target women, labeling it "misogyny" seems completely fair, whatever underlying mental disorder they suffer from.
  - fnef 12y ago
    > Considering that it appears to disproportionally target women That's a pretty big [citation needed]. All I see is that misogyny is a disproportionally popular news item, which is not at all the same thing. And if it's just an expression of people's mental disorders, that's not hate, and it's not productive to fixing the issue to call it hate when it's not.
    - mercurial 12y ago
      > That's a pretty big [citation needed]. All I see is that misogyny is a disproportionally popular news item, which is not at all the same thing. I have to admit I don't have hard numbers to back my claims, but I think it would be common knowledge if men were routinely called "sluts" and threatened with rape by trolls. > And if it's just an expression of people's mental disorders, that's not hate, and it's not productive to fixing the issue to call it hate when it's not. Oh, for that matter, I think most racists and homophobes could use psychological help as well, but it doesn't change their behaviour.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        Men are routinely the subject of death threats and similar style trolling. Men who die have their rememberance pages trolled. Young men are entrapped by criminal gangs into sending them nude photographs, which are then used to blackmail those young men. Sexual violence online appears to be mostly aimed at women, and mostly from men. But it's not hard to find examples of men receiving those threats or women making threats of sexual violence. This is especially true for non-hetero-normative men. It's a hard problem. Well funded companies full of smart people have tackled it and failed (youtube comments). Just for clarity: the experience of women online is likely to be pretty miserable. Many people, of both sexes, experience hatred. PS: I hate it when people ascribe bigoted opinions to mental illness. That excuses the behaviour whilst also stigmatising mental illhealth. Arseholes are arseholes because they're arseholes, not because they have a mental illness that causes them to be an arsehole.
        mercurial 12y ago
        > Young men are entrapped by criminal gangs into sending them nude photographs, which are then used to blackmail those young men. But that's just a business model (granted, it doesn't make any difference to the victim). Misogynists threaten for free. > Arseholes are arseholes because they're arseholes, not because they have a mental illness that causes them to be an arsehole. My working hypothesis is that well-adjusted people don't spend their free time sending rape/death threats over the Internet.
- runarberg 12y ago
  Exaggeration is a well known and powerful poetic tool. Although hate is not an exaggeration of what is going on, it is an emotionally loaded term that delivers the message clearly. You get all the relevant information from the context, and you get the urgency, and the disgracefulness of the act by using poetic replacement terms.
  - fnef 12y ago
    I agree that it's a powerful tool. It's a short-circuit for logic that, at times, can be useful to apply (such as, for example, wartime when debate can be deadly). I don't think this is one of those times. If we release our energy as hate and disparagement of harassers without fixing the problem at its core (or even finding out what that is), then all we've done is used exaggeration to make ourselves feel better, and add more poison and fear to the world. That's why I'm against calling things "misogyny" which aren't. Mind you, I do think misogyny is a real thing and a real problem, but I think it's quite buried in the social media and you'll rarely hear about it. Real hatred isn't funny, rational, or outrageous enough to be viral, and real hatred doesn't get off on reactions. That's the difference.
- sago 12y ago
  Ah, the "obviously the most important discussion to have about this is what the exact meanings of words are" derailment tactic. Honestly you could play mansplaining bingo in here.
leaveyou 12y ago
I'm not exaggerating here for the sake of the argument but I really don't find derogatory comments toward women in my daily routine reading. I read HN, reddit, tech magazines, blogs, regular newspapers (many local) and most of them have little to none censoring and people say harsh things towards other persons (stars, VIPs, judges, lawyers, cops, politicians for example). I admit I don't read magazines and blogs targeted at women other than by hazard.
- nrinaudo 12y ago
  If you want convincing examples, do a search on #gamergate. Don't spend too much time on it though, it's fairly infuriating / depressing to see what people allow themselves to do when they feel they'll get away with it.
- fenomas 12y ago
  The woman in the video didn't say she encountered misogyny on tech blogs or local newspapers, she had her photos posted to revenge porn sites. If you're not familiar with what she's talking about, great, but that's no grounds to claim it doesn't exist.

by Squarel 12y ago

fnef 12y ago

I challenge the notion that online trolls are genuinely hateful, almost regardless of their target. They're just sadists who find pleasure in other's suffering. I think it's horrible and these people deserve rehabilitative punishment by law, but it's silly to label it as hate, or, when the target happens to be female, misogyny.

mercurial 12y ago
Considering that it appears to disproportionally target women, labeling it "misogyny" seems completely fair, whatever underlying mental disorder they suffer from.
- fnef 12y ago
  > Considering that it appears to disproportionally target women That's a pretty big [citation needed]. All I see is that misogyny is a disproportionally popular news item, which is not at all the same thing. And if it's just an expression of people's mental disorders, that's not hate, and it's not productive to fixing the issue to call it hate when it's not.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    > That's a pretty big [citation needed]. All I see is that misogyny is a disproportionally popular news item, which is not at all the same thing. I have to admit I don't have hard numbers to back my claims, but I think it would be common knowledge if men were routinely called "sluts" and threatened with rape by trolls. > And if it's just an expression of people's mental disorders, that's not hate, and it's not productive to fixing the issue to call it hate when it's not. Oh, for that matter, I think most racists and homophobes could use psychological help as well, but it doesn't change their behaviour.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      Men are routinely the subject of death threats and similar style trolling. Men who die have their rememberance pages trolled. Young men are entrapped by criminal gangs into sending them nude photographs, which are then used to blackmail those young men. Sexual violence online appears to be mostly aimed at women, and mostly from men. But it's not hard to find examples of men receiving those threats or women making threats of sexual violence. This is especially true for non-hetero-normative men. It's a hard problem. Well funded companies full of smart people have tackled it and failed (youtube comments). Just for clarity: the experience of women online is likely to be pretty miserable. Many people, of both sexes, experience hatred. PS: I hate it when people ascribe bigoted opinions to mental illness. That excuses the behaviour whilst also stigmatising mental illhealth. Arseholes are arseholes because they're arseholes, not because they have a mental illness that causes them to be an arsehole.
      - mercurial 12y ago
        > Young men are entrapped by criminal gangs into sending them nude photographs, which are then used to blackmail those young men. But that's just a business model (granted, it doesn't make any difference to the victim). Misogynists threaten for free. > Arseholes are arseholes because they're arseholes, not because they have a mental illness that causes them to be an arsehole. My working hypothesis is that well-adjusted people don't spend their free time sending rape/death threats over the Internet.
runarberg 12y ago
Exaggeration is a well known and powerful poetic tool. Although hate is not an exaggeration of what is going on, it is an emotionally loaded term that delivers the message clearly. You get all the relevant information from the context, and you get the urgency, and the disgracefulness of the act by using poetic replacement terms.
- fnef 12y ago
  I agree that it's a powerful tool. It's a short-circuit for logic that, at times, can be useful to apply (such as, for example, wartime when debate can be deadly). I don't think this is one of those times. If we release our energy as hate and disparagement of harassers without fixing the problem at its core (or even finding out what that is), then all we've done is used exaggeration to make ourselves feel better, and add more poison and fear to the world. That's why I'm against calling things "misogyny" which aren't. Mind you, I do think misogyny is a real thing and a real problem, but I think it's quite buried in the social media and you'll rarely hear about it. Real hatred isn't funny, rational, or outrageous enough to be viral, and real hatred doesn't get off on reactions. That's the difference.
sago 12y ago
Ah, the "obviously the most important discussion to have about this is what the exact meanings of words are" derailment tactic. Honestly you could play mansplaining bingo in here.

leaveyou 12y ago

I'm not exaggerating here for the sake of the argument but I really don't find derogatory comments toward women in my daily routine reading. I read HN, reddit, tech magazines, blogs, regular newspapers (many local) and most of them have little to none censoring and people say harsh things towards other persons (stars, VIPs, judges, lawyers, cops, politicians for example). I admit I don't read magazines and blogs targeted at women other than by hazard.

nrinaudo 12y ago
If you want convincing examples, do a search on #gamergate. Don't spend too much time on it though, it's fairly infuriating / depressing to see what people allow themselves to do when they feel they'll get away with it.
fenomas 12y ago
The woman in the video didn't say she encountered misogyny on tech blogs or local newspapers, she had her photos posted to revenge porn sites. If you're not familiar with what she's talking about, great, but that's no grounds to claim it doesn't exist.