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Misleading title, robots can actually be great dancers[1]. The problem with AI is that it's a moving target, as soon as there's an advance we tend to go "well t

Misleading title, robots can actually be great dancers[1]. The problem with AI is that it's a moving target, as soon as there's an advance we tend to go "well that's still pretty mechanical", forgetting that we're also just mechanical systems (probably). Granted, AI and AGI isn't really the same thing, but it seems like we always make the assumption that an AGI has to work like a human internally. To me that seems like a good source of inspiration, but it's probably not a requirement. In the end, I think we'll figure out that for all our "creative genius", we're still just monkeys who see and do, and sometimes we do something new. [1] = http://youtu.be/ww9ClmCWBr0 http://youtu.be/ww9ClmCWBr0

Bjoern 12y ago
More on the topic of Dancing Robots, HRP-4C from AIST & Kawada https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZJqiUrbnI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZJqiUrbnI
stephanfroede 12y ago
You touched the core of the discussion, imo, that is there are two schools of thaught involved. One sees the universe and anything else as a machine -> determinism The others are seeing the universe as a discrete continuum -> indeterminism That is also my fundamental criticism at the current approach, it is not even considering the possibility that the whole approach could be wrong. I think intelligent machines are possible, but not without much more fundamental understanding. Hyping, cheering deep learning and all this stuff, is just irrational and illogical.
- aninhumer 12y ago
  Surely the more relevant dichotomy here is monism(materialism) vs dualism? For those who find determinism unsatifying, I doubt indeterminism feels like much of an improvement.
  - stephanfroede 12y ago
    Dualism is a part of it, but dualism is more an ethical question. Indeterminism is more about emergence, quantum fields and such things. How the universe works. My impression is that a lot of science that is applied to intelligent machines is based on a deterministic physical model based on Newton and LaPlace. The Bayesian networks was pioneered 200 years ago by LaPlace for example. But how is Einsteins relativity theory applied? Or quantum fields? There are two different models of the universe involved the "old" deterministic model and the "new" indeterministic model (see Karl Popper -> Open Universe -> http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/288137.The_Open_Universe http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/288137.The_Open_Universe). May be it make sense to bring some newer approaches into the game, instead of reapplying again and again the same approach.
crististm 12y ago
Yes they dance pretty well. But this is like saying that a tape recorder sings very well.
- arvinjoar 12y ago
  So where's the target now? That they should be able to improvize? I'm sure that can be added too with some work. Kurzweil famously wrote a program to produce music based on the music of classical composers as a child, I'm sure it could be done for dancing as well, especially since computer vision is making leaps, which would aid analysis. But then again, that would also just be "mechanical", as we would be able to explain the model.
  - crististm 12y ago
    They can't improvise. Improvisation is an innate quality which they lack. Likewise for the music creating program. There were such programs 30 years ago so Kurzweil's is nothing new. The music program can't judge the quality of the resulting piece.

Bjoern 12y ago

More on the topic of Dancing Robots, HRP-4C from AIST & Kawada https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZJqiUrbnI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZJqiUrbnI

stephanfroede 12y ago

You touched the core of the discussion, imo, that is there are two schools of thaught involved. One sees the universe and anything else as a machine -> determinism The others are seeing the universe as a discrete continuum -> indeterminism That is also my fundamental criticism at the current approach, it is not even considering the possibility that the whole approach could be wrong. I think intelligent machines are possible, but not without much more fundamental understanding. Hyping, cheering deep learning and all this stuff, is just irrational and illogical.

aninhumer 12y ago
Surely the more relevant dichotomy here is monism(materialism) vs dualism? For those who find determinism unsatifying, I doubt indeterminism feels like much of an improvement.
- stephanfroede 12y ago
  Dualism is a part of it, but dualism is more an ethical question. Indeterminism is more about emergence, quantum fields and such things. How the universe works. My impression is that a lot of science that is applied to intelligent machines is based on a deterministic physical model based on Newton and LaPlace. The Bayesian networks was pioneered 200 years ago by LaPlace for example. But how is Einsteins relativity theory applied? Or quantum fields? There are two different models of the universe involved the "old" deterministic model and the "new" indeterministic model (see Karl Popper -> Open Universe -> http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/288137.The_Open_Universe http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/288137.The_Open_Universe). May be it make sense to bring some newer approaches into the game, instead of reapplying again and again the same approach.

crististm 12y ago

Yes they dance pretty well. But this is like saying that a tape recorder sings very well.

arvinjoar 12y ago
So where's the target now? That they should be able to improvize? I'm sure that can be added too with some work. Kurzweil famously wrote a program to produce music based on the music of classical composers as a child, I'm sure it could be done for dancing as well, especially since computer vision is making leaps, which would aid analysis. But then again, that would also just be "mechanical", as we would be able to explain the model.
- crististm 12y ago
  They can't improvise. Improvisation is an innate quality which they lack. Likewise for the music creating program. There were such programs 30 years ago so Kurzweil's is nothing new. The music program can't judge the quality of the resulting piece.