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I can't help thinking that you're conflating being poor with being socially problematic. Poorer and less educated immigrants often do the jobs that no one else

by hnhg 17y ago

I can't help thinking that you're conflating being poor with being socially problematic. Poorer and less educated immigrants often do the jobs that no one else wants in their new home and take opportunities that were denied them in their home countries. Just think of all the past generations of poor Chinese, Irish and Italians that were vilified for being poor - and how things have moved on since then.

yardie 17y ago
I would take care with a statement like this. Because I used to believe it than found out it wasn't true. Case in point. I grew up in an area with high immigration and they did do the jobs that no one else wanted. And because I only saw immigrants (Carribean, South and Central American) doing these jobs, cutting grass for example, I assumed it must be true. So imagine my surprise when I went to a university in the appalachians and I saw white people cutting grass. I was shocked to see white people cut grass because 1) I never saw it happen before, 2) I was always told cutting grass was done by immigrants because no one else wanted the job. So no, there is no such thing as a job no one wants. A job market works like the free market. If the wage is too low you can increase the wage until someone takes it. Using cheap immigrant labour distorts the free market the same way buying knockoffs does. A job no one wants is not a valid defense to support immigration.
- foldr 17y ago
  > Using cheap immigrant labour distorts the free market Are you seriously suggesting that the free movement of labor _distorts_ the free market? By, you know, putting employers in contact with the most competitive workers. > If the wage is too low you can increase the wage until someone takes it. Or, equally likely, you can decide that the job is not worth doing for the higher price.
  - yardie 17y ago
    Can you name a single country that has a completely free labour market? You won't find a single one where the government hasn't erected a barrier of entry (visa requirements). The eurozone has probably the closest thing to a free labour market (they've extended the barriers to include most EC members). But if you are an American try getting a work permit in China, India, Mexico, the UK or Canada without having met the visa requirements first. Yes I stand by my statement that immigration (especially the illegal kind) distorts the free market. > the job is not worth doing for the higher price. If the job is not worth doing then you have a decision to make don't you. I buy lots of things in a free market. Sometimes the price isn't worth it, a free market allows me to make that decision. But we don't even have that kind of free market. I'm restricted to making most of my purchases in the country I reside. I could buy it cheaper in another country, but the government has erected another barrier (tariffs). Free markets should apply equally to everything, goods and labour. But at the moment they don't. I can't do the work cheaper than someone in Mexico because the price of goods are higher, the taxes are higher, and living costs are higher. I could compete in the Mexican market, but I'm not allowed to move there.
    - foldr 17y ago
      Most of what you're saying here (that existing markets are not 100% free) is obvious and uncontroversial, but does nothing to back up your claim that the free movement of labor "distorts" free markets. >Can you name a single country that has a completely free labour market? No, in large part because they all have restrictions on immigration. >Yes I stand by my statement that immigration (especially the illegal kind) distorts the free market. Maybe you should actually explain this statement instead of just standing by it. The term "free" in "free market" generally refers to the absence of external regulation, so it is odd to say that strict regulation of the labor market makes the market less free. >If the job is not worth doing then you have a decision to make don't you. I buy lots of things in a free market. Sometimes the price isn't worth it, a free market allows me to make that decision. Yes, that's exactly what I said in my previous post. Why are you copying it back to me?

by hnhg 17y ago

yardie 17y ago

I would take care with a statement like this. Because I used to believe it than found out it wasn't true. Case in point. I grew up in an area with high immigration and they did do the jobs that no one else wanted. And because I only saw immigrants (Carribean, South and Central American) doing these jobs, cutting grass for example, I assumed it must be true. So imagine my surprise when I went to a university in the appalachians and I saw white people cutting grass. I was shocked to see white people cut grass because 1) I never saw it happen before, 2) I was always told cutting grass was done by immigrants because no one else wanted the job. So no, there is no such thing as a job no one wants. A job market works like the free market. If the wage is too low you can increase the wage until someone takes it. Using cheap immigrant labour distorts the free market the same way buying knockoffs does. A job no one wants is not a valid defense to support immigration.

foldr 17y ago
> Using cheap immigrant labour distorts the free market Are you seriously suggesting that the free movement of labor _distorts_ the free market? By, you know, putting employers in contact with the most competitive workers. > If the wage is too low you can increase the wage until someone takes it. Or, equally likely, you can decide that the job is not worth doing for the higher price.
- yardie 17y ago
  Can you name a single country that has a completely free labour market? You won't find a single one where the government hasn't erected a barrier of entry (visa requirements). The eurozone has probably the closest thing to a free labour market (they've extended the barriers to include most EC members). But if you are an American try getting a work permit in China, India, Mexico, the UK or Canada without having met the visa requirements first. Yes I stand by my statement that immigration (especially the illegal kind) distorts the free market. > the job is not worth doing for the higher price. If the job is not worth doing then you have a decision to make don't you. I buy lots of things in a free market. Sometimes the price isn't worth it, a free market allows me to make that decision. But we don't even have that kind of free market. I'm restricted to making most of my purchases in the country I reside. I could buy it cheaper in another country, but the government has erected another barrier (tariffs). Free markets should apply equally to everything, goods and labour. But at the moment they don't. I can't do the work cheaper than someone in Mexico because the price of goods are higher, the taxes are higher, and living costs are higher. I could compete in the Mexican market, but I'm not allowed to move there.
  - foldr 17y ago
    Most of what you're saying here (that existing markets are not 100% free) is obvious and uncontroversial, but does nothing to back up your claim that the free movement of labor "distorts" free markets. >Can you name a single country that has a completely free labour market? No, in large part because they all have restrictions on immigration. >Yes I stand by my statement that immigration (especially the illegal kind) distorts the free market. Maybe you should actually explain this statement instead of just standing by it. The term "free" in "free market" generally refers to the absence of external regulation, so it is odd to say that strict regulation of the labor market makes the market less free. >If the job is not worth doing then you have a decision to make don't you. I buy lots of things in a free market. Sometimes the price isn't worth it, a free market allows me to make that decision. Yes, that's exactly what I said in my previous post. Why are you copying it back to me?