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I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken afte

I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken after the war in Mali. And when you are young with no money, you don't need a cell phone, you don't need a car, and you don't make children. You get your life in order, then you go for the expensive stuff. People think it's normal to have these. Guys, it's not even normal to have electricity and water : these are the luxury of 20 % of the world. So stop spending in things you don't need before you can afford them, then complain. A car is a luxury. You got bikes, public transport, legs... Cell phone is a luxury. Yes, even when you are looking for a job. Unless you can find a phone bill costing 2$/month, which I do. Kids are a luxury. Not a right. Not a must have. Something you do when you can give them a decent living. Or you don't make them.

mercer 12y ago
I find that whenever I'm inclined to unsympathetic to the experience of another person, it's best to stop and remind myself that most people try their best to be good and happy, and care for those that are close to them, and that perhaps I'm just missing something. In this particular case, I'd argue that in many areas of the USA, cars are not a luxury, they're essential to moving around in the (to me) odd car-based infrastructure. Cell phones are also not a luxury, even here in Europe, which is why most homeless people have one. Kids are also not a luxury, because, as the author argues, context and basic human needs make it all but impossible for many (most) humans to keep from procreating, accidentally or otherwise. I think it's intellectually lazy to apply your own situation to others without considering their particulars. Sure, there are times where you can conclude that someone 'deserves' their lot in life, but I've found much more often than not that this lot is a result of external factors, and concluding that it isn't is dangerous, arrogant, and easy. Edit: I'd add that judging others in this manner often hinges on the assumption that willpower is somehow just a choice, where in actually there's a lot of evidence that it's not, at least in large part.
- sametmax 12y ago
  In theory yes, in practice, if you observe around you, people in debt are (very) often the ones with early children, loans, 200$ phone bills and more. I've seen plenty people having money problems, even caused by health problems or accidents. The ones to get out of it are the ones that stop spending in materials everybody else claim are mandatory untill they get better. And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived without it for years. And no, a car is not mandatory. If you are in an area requireing a car, move in another area. If you don't, you are making the explicit choice to spend more money for the luxury of staying here. And no, accidental kids are not a good excuse when you got condom, pills, emergency pills and eventually abvortion. My GF had an abvortion once. It was terrible. Still better than having a family in distress. Of course, you can always find extrems cases, like somebody raised in a very religious family, forced to keep a baby, or somebody with a love one to care in an hospital. But it's rare. I lived in Europe, Africa, travelled to Asia, America south and north. In the US or the West Europe, most people ARE, in fact, responsible for their debts. I'm not talking about people in the street. These are a very different situation. I'm talking about this everyday poverty, that of course nobody choose to be in voluntarly, but are the results of life priorities directly imported from TV, magazins and supermarkets.
  - silencio 12y ago
    Are you in the US? Especially since the story is from someone living in the US? > And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived without it for years. You get very few job interviews if you don't have a phone or internet connection (which your phone can help you with). > If you are in an area requireing a car, move in another area. Yeah, why doesn't everyone just pack up and move to a strange city with no guarantee of a job - if you can even find one with a better transit system (if you have money for that transit system in the first place) or a bike (if you have money for a bike) or walking (if your job prospects are good enough that you can walk to your job - _if_ you can walk in the first place). > And no, accidental kids are not a good excuse when you got condom, pills, emergency pills and eventually abvortion. My GF had an abvortion once. It was terrible. Still better than having a family in distress. Ignoring what happens to people that had kids before they had any problems... Because we don't also have a reproductive health crisis with Republicans trying to do away with abortions and very, very expensive condoms, pills, and emergency pills? Do you know how much that costs? The time? The actual money? Plan B is around $50. Pills (if they even work for you, which they don't for many women) can skyrocket even with insurance - and often they require a doctor's visit too which costs even more. Condoms? Free if you can find a place that has them for free, which is the difficult part. Abortion? Don't even get me started on the timing and money required for that. Yes, people are responsible for their debts. That doesn't mean we treat them like shit, and that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of safety net/help for them. Everyone fucks up at some point or another, or shit happens. It's just easier for more privileged people to deal with that without losing everything they have. > I've seen plenty people having money problems, even caused by health problems or accidents. The ones to get out of it are the ones that stop spending in materials everybody else claim are mandatory untill they get better. This may be a very American problem, but hahahaha. Have you tried going without anything but the bare minimum to pay off $xx,xxx in medical bills - if you're lucky - after negotiating it down? One single relatively minor health problem/accident - or a major one with decent insurance - might be doable. Good luck with anything else though. My middle class father is probably currently googling to figure out how to divorce my mother because his medical bills have risen in the past year despite being on Medicare+the best supplemental insurance on the market. Chew on that. What now, staying with his caring partner of decades and leaving her, me+my partner, and future grandkids an inheritance that isn't in the negatives is a privilege now? We as a society won't be better off continuing this kind of bullshit.
- intopieces 12y ago
  "intellectually lazy" is the correct term, even a bit polite. The idea behind this discussion is to look at why people are poor and to find ways - real, concrete, actionable ways - to improve the situation for the poor. Judgements based on personal experience do not fit within this discussion because they are entirely beside the point.
  - zo1 12y ago
    >"Judgements like 'well I was poor and now I'm rich - your story is fake' do not fit within this discussion because they are entirely beside the point." That's obviously not what he is saying. Your doing way more than paraphrasing with that one.
    - intopieces 12y ago
      I agree with you, so I changed it. I mischaracterized the person's comment. It was flippant and detracted from the point I was making.
Riseed 12y ago
I do not understand the sentiment that poor people shouldn't have cell phones. Please tell me, how does one get a job in the US without a phone? And when one's job means being called in on short notice, how does one keep said job without having a phone?
- sametmax 12y ago
  You use your friends phone. Friends are supposed to help your. Of course, if you get a job needing a phone, you take one. But again, I never had one job requiring a phone. You can tell an employer "i'm broke, i can't afford a phone right now". People are human.
- jpindar 12y ago
  You don't. The people who consider cell phones or internet access* as luxuries are stuck in the past, probably in the time they grew up. They also often speak of flat screen TVs, laptop computers, and even microwave ovens as being major luxuries compared to the "normal" equivalent. (Can you even still get a CRT TV?) *It's extremely common for several poor people to share internet access, but at least one of them has to be paying for it.
- rhino369 12y ago
  Cell phones are dirt cheap now. Get a dumb phone with prepaid minutes and it's very affordable. Getting a boost mobile iphone 6 is ridiculous though.
ejk314 12y ago
Do you want us to say, "Congratulations, you are clearly an extraordinary person for overcoming greater poverty than the author and we should all defer to your wisdom." ? Fine. I've said it. Let's move on. Everything you've mentioned is how you avoid getting stuck in poverty - and all of what you've said seems like sound advice. But what happens when you've already made many mistakes, when you're already in debt and have children to take care of? I think that's where the author is starting from. She's trying to explain why she continued to make terrible choices when she became poor; not trying to justify her decisions, just trying to explain her faulty logic. Ultimately, it would be better if we never had people get stuck in poverty. But what do we do once they're stuck? Should we just give up on them? Yeah, they fucked up. But if they feel like there's no way for them to get out of the hole they've dug, why should they even try?

mercer 12y ago

I find that whenever I'm inclined to unsympathetic to the experience of another person, it's best to stop and remind myself that most people try their best to be good and happy, and care for those that are close to them, and that perhaps I'm just missing something. In this particular case, I'd argue that in many areas of the USA, cars are not a luxury, they're essential to moving around in the (to me) odd car-based infrastructure. Cell phones are also not a luxury, even here in Europe, which is why most homeless people have one. Kids are also not a luxury, because, as the author argues, context and basic human needs make it all but impossible for many (most) humans to keep from procreating, accidentally or otherwise. I think it's intellectually lazy to apply your own situation to others without considering their particulars. Sure, there are times where you can conclude that someone 'deserves' their lot in life, but I've found much more often than not that this lot is a result of external factors, and concluding that it isn't is dangerous, arrogant, and easy. Edit: I'd add that judging others in this manner often hinges on the assumption that willpower is somehow just a choice, where in actually there's a lot of evidence that it's not, at least in large part.

sametmax 12y ago
In theory yes, in practice, if you observe around you, people in debt are (very) often the ones with early children, loans, 200$ phone bills and more. I've seen plenty people having money problems, even caused by health problems or accidents. The ones to get out of it are the ones that stop spending in materials everybody else claim are mandatory untill they get better. And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived without it for years. And no, a car is not mandatory. If you are in an area requireing a car, move in another area. If you don't, you are making the explicit choice to spend more money for the luxury of staying here. And no, accidental kids are not a good excuse when you got condom, pills, emergency pills and eventually abvortion. My GF had an abvortion once. It was terrible. Still better than having a family in distress. Of course, you can always find extrems cases, like somebody raised in a very religious family, forced to keep a baby, or somebody with a love one to care in an hospital. But it's rare. I lived in Europe, Africa, travelled to Asia, America south and north. In the US or the West Europe, most people ARE, in fact, responsible for their debts. I'm not talking about people in the street. These are a very different situation. I'm talking about this everyday poverty, that of course nobody choose to be in voluntarly, but are the results of life priorities directly imported from TV, magazins and supermarkets.
- silencio 12y ago
  Are you in the US? Especially since the story is from someone living in the US? > And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived without it for years. You get very few job interviews if you don't have a phone or internet connection (which your phone can help you with). > If you are in an area requireing a car, move in another area. Yeah, why doesn't everyone just pack up and move to a strange city with no guarantee of a job - if you can even find one with a better transit system (if you have money for that transit system in the first place) or a bike (if you have money for a bike) or walking (if your job prospects are good enough that you can walk to your job - _if_ you can walk in the first place). > And no, accidental kids are not a good excuse when you got condom, pills, emergency pills and eventually abvortion. My GF had an abvortion once. It was terrible. Still better than having a family in distress. Ignoring what happens to people that had kids before they had any problems... Because we don't also have a reproductive health crisis with Republicans trying to do away with abortions and very, very expensive condoms, pills, and emergency pills? Do you know how much that costs? The time? The actual money? Plan B is around $50. Pills (if they even work for you, which they don't for many women) can skyrocket even with insurance - and often they require a doctor's visit too which costs even more. Condoms? Free if you can find a place that has them for free, which is the difficult part. Abortion? Don't even get me started on the timing and money required for that. Yes, people are responsible for their debts. That doesn't mean we treat them like shit, and that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of safety net/help for them. Everyone fucks up at some point or another, or shit happens. It's just easier for more privileged people to deal with that without losing everything they have. > I've seen plenty people having money problems, even caused by health problems or accidents. The ones to get out of it are the ones that stop spending in materials everybody else claim are mandatory untill they get better. This may be a very American problem, but hahahaha. Have you tried going without anything but the bare minimum to pay off $xx,xxx in medical bills - if you're lucky - after negotiating it down? One single relatively minor health problem/accident - or a major one with decent insurance - might be doable. Good luck with anything else though. My middle class father is probably currently googling to figure out how to divorce my mother because his medical bills have risen in the past year despite being on Medicare+the best supplemental insurance on the market. Chew on that. What now, staying with his caring partner of decades and leaving her, me+my partner, and future grandkids an inheritance that isn't in the negatives is a privilege now? We as a society won't be better off continuing this kind of bullshit.
intopieces 12y ago
"intellectually lazy" is the correct term, even a bit polite. The idea behind this discussion is to look at why people are poor and to find ways - real, concrete, actionable ways - to improve the situation for the poor. Judgements based on personal experience do not fit within this discussion because they are entirely beside the point.
- zo1 12y ago
  >"Judgements like 'well I was poor and now I'm rich - your story is fake' do not fit within this discussion because they are entirely beside the point." That's obviously not what he is saying. Your doing way more than paraphrasing with that one.
  - intopieces 12y ago
    I agree with you, so I changed it. I mischaracterized the person's comment. It was flippant and detracted from the point I was making.

Riseed 12y ago

I do not understand the sentiment that poor people shouldn't have cell phones. Please tell me, how does one get a job in the US without a phone? And when one's job means being called in on short notice, how does one keep said job without having a phone?

sametmax 12y ago
You use your friends phone. Friends are supposed to help your. Of course, if you get a job needing a phone, you take one. But again, I never had one job requiring a phone. You can tell an employer "i'm broke, i can't afford a phone right now". People are human.
jpindar 12y ago
You don't. The people who consider cell phones or internet access* as luxuries are stuck in the past, probably in the time they grew up. They also often speak of flat screen TVs, laptop computers, and even microwave ovens as being major luxuries compared to the "normal" equivalent. (Can you even still get a CRT TV?) *It's extremely common for several poor people to share internet access, but at least one of them has to be paying for it.
rhino369 12y ago
Cell phones are dirt cheap now. Get a dumb phone with prepaid minutes and it's very affordable. Getting a boost mobile iphone 6 is ridiculous though.

ejk314 12y ago

Do you want us to say, "Congratulations, you are clearly an extraordinary person for overcoming greater poverty than the author and we should all defer to your wisdom." ? Fine. I've said it. Let's move on. Everything you've mentioned is how you avoid getting stuck in poverty - and all of what you've said seems like sound advice. But what happens when you've already made many mistakes, when you're already in debt and have children to take care of? I think that's where the author is starting from. She's trying to explain why she continued to make terrible choices when she became poor; not trying to justify her decisions, just trying to explain her faulty logic. Ultimately, it would be better if we never had people get stuck in poverty. But what do we do once they're stuck? Should we just give up on them? Yeah, they fucked up. But if they feel like there's no way for them to get out of the hole they've dug, why should they even try?